True Mormon A perspective of the past and present doctrine and activities of the different groups of the Latter-day Saint people
Showing posts with label 8 Hour Meeting. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 8 Hour Meeting. Show all posts
Saturday, November 27, 2010
Polygamy is Supported in the Bible
In fact, in the Bible, Abraham had at least three wives, Jacob had at least four wives, and Moses had at least two. David had his wives taken from him by God through Nathan due to infidelity with a married woman. Jesus had a parable referring to polygamy and called the five of ten, who actually went to wed the groom, wise. He was referring to all men and women in the last days, but could have referred to orphans or princes(instead of virgins)and to a king(instead of bridegroom).
Thursday, June 17, 2010
My Rant on The Comments I Have Been Hearing
Do we make all marriages bad? Because that's what I am hearing. I can tell you that marriage is good for me. Plural marriage for me may be good too. Why restrict it? Some of the finest of God's servants had more wives than one. The Bible is full of references. Stop with the, I am better than you mask, and leave people to their religious lives. Especially when they are doing fine. I lived in the FLDS community. I don't now, so I can be objective about it. I will say, I prefer the way they do marriages over the way it is done anywhere else. The respect exhibited by the men toward the women is not as objects as some are misinformed, through propaganda, may conclude. No. Respect toward women there is admired by the youth, and that is why most children stay when they grow older. Young marriages are not common there. They are not forbidden, but are rather minuscule in number. Yet you would think that it is common, by the accounts of the media. It is not considered evil or wrong to marry young there. Because when girls think they are ready to marry, they have to have their parents agree, which is many times unlikely for the parents to agree. But when they do, they will present her to the prophet who will have her come back for multiple appointment sessions with the parents in tow. I will have you know that this is not unlike how the young men are treated. It is no laughing matter to the parents nor to the young people. The vows are taken seriously. Abuse is unlikely in case you are wondering. If a man is found to be abusive there, he will be sent out, and all he earned in his life will be given to a finer gentler more righteous man. Jeffs is being wrongfully targeted. It is due to the religious prejudices of those who hold authority in government. The laws that are being used to convict him are unconstitutional. Yet he has been hated by the media, the government and the LDS neighbors who just hate Warren Jeffs on the outset. There is no truth in their criticism except in their own paradigms.
Thursday, June 10, 2010
The (so called) New Hope
The HOPE Organization is a non-profit group dedicated to assisting survivors of abuse within polygamous relationships on their courageous journey to personal freedom.
HOPE is a St. George, Utah based 501(c)(3) charity providing assistance to individuals and families to safely transition from a polygamous lifestyle into mainstream society.
HOPE's purpose is to offer support, protection, assistance, choices, opportunities and hope for the women, children, families and young adults (both male and female) who have been kicked out or have chosen to leave this culture. Sadly, too many women and children live under immense control, oppression and fear of eternal damnation, and they are caught in the cycle of abuse without a choice or a voice . . . We want to empower them!
Laws against these crimes are based in religion, which violates the separation of church and state. They are un-American, as they attempt to homogenize the country to a certain group's idea of morality, and that they create an oppressive society, restricting personal freedoms without justification. They teach irresponsibility, by not letting people deal with the natural consequences of their actions, but rather penalizing them whether or not their actions harmed anyone else.
Catching the "criminals" involved is an expensive affair. Victimless crimes draw manpower and funds away from crimes that do hurt innocent parties, and enforcement of the laws is not consistent enough to be an effective deterrent. I argue that actions to help people deal with problems caused by these illegal activities are effectively prevented by their criminalization -- for example, no one could be helped about their drinking problems during Prohibition. Additionally, he details how laws against victimless crimes paved the way for organized crime. from Wikipedia: Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country by Peter McWilliams
HOPE is a St. George, Utah based 501(c)(3) charity providing assistance to individuals and families to safely transition from a polygamous lifestyle into mainstream society.
HOPE's purpose is to offer support, protection, assistance, choices, opportunities and hope for the women, children, families and young adults (both male and female) who have been kicked out or have chosen to leave this culture. Sadly, too many women and children live under immense control, oppression and fear of eternal damnation, and they are caught in the cycle of abuse without a choice or a voice . . . We want to empower them!
Laws against these crimes are based in religion, which violates the separation of church and state. They are un-American, as they attempt to homogenize the country to a certain group's idea of morality, and that they create an oppressive society, restricting personal freedoms without justification. They teach irresponsibility, by not letting people deal with the natural consequences of their actions, but rather penalizing them whether or not their actions harmed anyone else.
Catching the "criminals" involved is an expensive affair. Victimless crimes draw manpower and funds away from crimes that do hurt innocent parties, and enforcement of the laws is not consistent enough to be an effective deterrent. I argue that actions to help people deal with problems caused by these illegal activities are effectively prevented by their criminalization -- for example, no one could be helped about their drinking problems during Prohibition. Additionally, he details how laws against victimless crimes paved the way for organized crime. from Wikipedia: Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country by Peter McWilliams
Saturday, September 12, 2009
Witness account
Lorin C. Woolley related the following:
While the brethren were at the Carlisle residence (in Murray) in May or June of 1886, letters began to come to President John Taylor from such men as John Sharp, Horace Eldredge, William Jennings, John T. Cain, Abraham Hatch, President Cluff and many other leading men from all over the Church, asking the leaders to do something, as the Gentiles were talking of confiscating their property in connection with the property of the Church.
These letters not only came from those who were living in the plural marriage relation, but also from prominent men who were presiding in various offices in the Church who were not living in that relation. They all urged that something be done to satisfy the Gentiles so that their property would not be confiscated.
George Q. Cannon, on his own initiative, selected a committee comprising himself, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, John T. Caine and James Jack, to get up a statement or manifesto that would meet the objections urged by the brethren above named. They met from time to time to discuss the situation. From the White home, where President Taylor and companions stopped, after leaving the Carlisle home, they came out to father’s. George Q. Cannon would go and consult with the brethren of the committee, I taking him back and forth each day.
On September 26, 1886, George Q. Cannon, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, and others met with President John Taylor at my father’s residence at Centerville, Davis County, Utah, and presented a document for President Taylor’s consideration.
I had just got back from a three days’ trip, during most of which time I had been in the saddle, and being greatly fatigued, I had retired to rest.
Between one and two o’clock P.M. Brother Bateman came and woke me up and asked me to be at my father’s home, where a manifesto was to be discussed. I went there and found there were congregated Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, L. John Nuttall, Charles Birrell, George Q. Cannon, Franklin S. Richards and Hyrum B. Clawson.
We discussed the proposed Manifesto at length, but we were unable to become united in the discussion. Finally George Q. Cannon suggested that President Taylor take the matter up with the Lord and decide the same the next day.
Brothers Clawson and Richards were taken back to Salt Lake. That evening I was called to act as guard during the first part of the night, notwithstanding the fact that I was greatly fatigued on account of the three days’ trip I had just completed.
The brethren retired to bed soon after 9 o’clock. The sleeping rooms were inspected by the guards as was the custom. President Taylor’s room had no outside door. The windows were heavily screened.
Some time after the brethren retired and while I was reading the Doctrine and Covenants, I was suddenly attracted to a light appearing under the door leading to President Taylor’s room, and was at once startled to hear the voices of men talking there. There were three distinct voices. I was bewildered because it was my duty to keep people out of that room and evidently someone had entered without my knowing it. I made a hasty examination and found the door leading to the room bolted as usual. I then examined the outside of the house and found all the window screens intact. While examining the last window, and feeling greatly agitated, a voice spoke to me saying, “Can’t you feel the Spirit? Why should you worry?”
At this I returned to my post and continued to hear the voices in the room. They were so audible that although I did not see the parties I could place their positions in the room from the sound of their voices. The three voices continued until about midnight, when one of them left, and the other two continued. One of them I recognized as President John Taylor’s voice. I called Charles Birrell [Footnote: Charles Birrell was also a bodyguard of the brethren and was to take the second shift in watching on this night.] and we both sat up until eight o’clock the next morning.
When President Taylor came out of his room about eight o’clock of the morning of September 27, 1886, we could scarcely look at him on account of the brightness of his personage.
He stated, “Brethren, I have had a very pleasant conversation with Brother Joseph (Joseph Smith).” I said, “Boss, who is the man that was there until midnight?” He asked, “What do you know about it, Lorin?” I told him all about my experience. He said, “Brother Lorin, that was your Lord.”
We had no breakfast, but assembled ourselves in a meeting. I forget who opened the meeting. I was called to offer the benediction. I think my father, John W. Woolley, offered the opening prayer. There were present at the meeting, in addition to President Taylor, George Q. Cannon, L. John Nuttall, John W. Woolley, Samuel Bateman, Charles Wilkins, Charles Birrell, Daniel R. Bateman, Bishop Samuel Sedden, George Earl, my mother, Julia E. Woolley, my sister, Amy Woolley, and myself. The meeting was held from about 9 o’clock in the morning until 5 in the afternoon, without intermission, being about eight hours in all.
President Taylor called the meeting to order. He had the Manifesto, that had been prepared under the direction of George Q. Cannon, read over again. He then put each person under covenant that he or she would defend the principle of Celestial or plural marriage, and that they would consecrate their lives, liberty and property to this end, and that they personally would sustain and uphold that principle.
By that time we were all filled with the Holy Ghost. President Taylor and those present occupied about three hours up to this time. After placing us under covenant, he placed his finger on the document, his person rising from the floor about a foot or eighteen inches, and with countenance animated by the Spirit of the Lord, and raising his right hand to the square, he said, “Sign that document? -- Never! I would suffer my right hand to be severed from my body first. Sanction it—never! I would suffer my tongue to be torn from its roots in my mouth before I would sanction it!”
After that he talked for about an hour and then sat down and wrote the revelation which was given him by the Lord upon the question of Plural Marriage (the text of which revelation is given above). Then he talked to us for some time, and said, “Some of you will be handled and ostracized and cast out from the Church by your brethren because of your faithfulness and integrity to this principle, and some of you may have to surrender your lives because of the same, but woe, woe, unto those who shall bring these troubles upon you.” (Three of us were handled and ostracized for supporting and sustaining this principle. There are only three left who were at the meeting mentioned—Daniel R. Bateman, George Earl, and myself. So far as I know, those of them who have passed away all stood firm to the covenants entered into from that day to the day of their deaths.)
After the meeting referred to, President Taylor had L. John Nuttall write five copies of the revelation. He called five of us together: Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, George Q. Cannon, John W. Woolley, and myself.
He then set us apart and placed us under covenant that while we lived we would see to it that no year passed by without children being born in the principle of plural marriage. We were given authority to ordain others if necessary to carry this work on, they in turn to be given authority to ordain others when necessary, under the direction of the worthy senior (by ordination), so that there should be no cessation in the work. He then gave each of us a copy of the revelation.
I am the only one of the five now living, and so far as I know all five of the brethren remained true and faithful to the covenants they entered into, and to the responsibilities placed upon them at that time.
During the eight hours we were together, and while President Taylor was talking to us, he frequently arose and stood above the floor, and his countenance and being were so enveloped by light and glory that it was difficult for us to look upon him.
He stated that the document (referring to the Manifesto) was from the lower regions. He stated that many of the things he had told us we would forget and they would be taken from us, but that they would return to us in due time as needed, and from this fact we would know that the same was from the Lord. This has been literally fulfilled. Many of the things I forgot, but they are coming to me gradually, and those things that come to me are as clear as on the day on which they were given.
President Taylor said that the time would come when many of the Saints would apostatize because of this principle. He said “one-half of this people would apostatize over the principle for which we are now in hiding; yea, and possibly one-half of the other half” (rising off the floor while making the statement). He also said the day will come when a document similar to that (Manifesto) then under consideration would beadopted by the Church, following which “APOSTASY AND WHOREDOM would be rampant in the Church.”
He said that in the time of the seventh President of this Church, the Church would go into bondage both temporally and spiritually and in that day (the day of bondage) the one Mighty and Strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants would come.
Among other things stated by President Taylor on this occasion was this, “I would be surprised if ten per cent of those who claim to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood will remain true and faithful to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, at the time of the seventh president, and that there would be thousands that think they hold the priesthood at that time, but would not have it properly conferred upon them.”
John Taylor set the five mentioned apart and gave them authority to perform marriage ceremonies, and also to set others apart to do the same thing as long as they remained upon the earth; and while doing so, the Prophet Joseph Smith stood by directing the proceedings. Two of us had not met the Prophet Joseph Smith in his mortal lifetime and we—Charles H. Wilkins and myself—were introduced to him and shook hands with him.
(Signed) LORIN C. WOOLLEY.
Daniel R. Bateman, being present while the above experience was related by Brother Woolley, testified as follows: “I was privileged to be at the meeting of September 27, 1886, spoken of by Brother Woolley, I myself acting as one of the guards for the brethren during those exciting times. The proceedings of the meeting, as related by Brother Woolley, are correct in every detail. I was not present when the five spoken of by Brother Woolley were set apart for special work, but have on different occasions heard the details of the same related by Brother Lorin C. Woolley and John W. Woolley, and from all the circumstances with which I am familiar, I firmly believe the testimony of these two brethren to be true.”
Additional Corroborative Evidence
While the brethren were at the Carlisle residence (in Murray) in May or June of 1886, letters began to come to President John Taylor from such men as John Sharp, Horace Eldredge, William Jennings, John T. Cain, Abraham Hatch, President Cluff and many other leading men from all over the Church, asking the leaders to do something, as the Gentiles were talking of confiscating their property in connection with the property of the Church.
These letters not only came from those who were living in the plural marriage relation, but also from prominent men who were presiding in various offices in the Church who were not living in that relation. They all urged that something be done to satisfy the Gentiles so that their property would not be confiscated.
George Q. Cannon, on his own initiative, selected a committee comprising himself, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, John T. Caine and James Jack, to get up a statement or manifesto that would meet the objections urged by the brethren above named. They met from time to time to discuss the situation. From the White home, where President Taylor and companions stopped, after leaving the Carlisle home, they came out to father’s. George Q. Cannon would go and consult with the brethren of the committee, I taking him back and forth each day.
On September 26, 1886, George Q. Cannon, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, and others met with President John Taylor at my father’s residence at Centerville, Davis County, Utah, and presented a document for President Taylor’s consideration.
I had just got back from a three days’ trip, during most of which time I had been in the saddle, and being greatly fatigued, I had retired to rest.
Between one and two o’clock P.M. Brother Bateman came and woke me up and asked me to be at my father’s home, where a manifesto was to be discussed. I went there and found there were congregated Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, L. John Nuttall, Charles Birrell, George Q. Cannon, Franklin S. Richards and Hyrum B. Clawson.
We discussed the proposed Manifesto at length, but we were unable to become united in the discussion. Finally George Q. Cannon suggested that President Taylor take the matter up with the Lord and decide the same the next day.
Brothers Clawson and Richards were taken back to Salt Lake. That evening I was called to act as guard during the first part of the night, notwithstanding the fact that I was greatly fatigued on account of the three days’ trip I had just completed.
The brethren retired to bed soon after 9 o’clock. The sleeping rooms were inspected by the guards as was the custom. President Taylor’s room had no outside door. The windows were heavily screened.
Some time after the brethren retired and while I was reading the Doctrine and Covenants, I was suddenly attracted to a light appearing under the door leading to President Taylor’s room, and was at once startled to hear the voices of men talking there. There were three distinct voices. I was bewildered because it was my duty to keep people out of that room and evidently someone had entered without my knowing it. I made a hasty examination and found the door leading to the room bolted as usual. I then examined the outside of the house and found all the window screens intact. While examining the last window, and feeling greatly agitated, a voice spoke to me saying, “Can’t you feel the Spirit? Why should you worry?”
At this I returned to my post and continued to hear the voices in the room. They were so audible that although I did not see the parties I could place their positions in the room from the sound of their voices. The three voices continued until about midnight, when one of them left, and the other two continued. One of them I recognized as President John Taylor’s voice. I called Charles Birrell [Footnote: Charles Birrell was also a bodyguard of the brethren and was to take the second shift in watching on this night.] and we both sat up until eight o’clock the next morning.
When President Taylor came out of his room about eight o’clock of the morning of September 27, 1886, we could scarcely look at him on account of the brightness of his personage.
He stated, “Brethren, I have had a very pleasant conversation with Brother Joseph (Joseph Smith).” I said, “Boss, who is the man that was there until midnight?” He asked, “What do you know about it, Lorin?” I told him all about my experience. He said, “Brother Lorin, that was your Lord.”
We had no breakfast, but assembled ourselves in a meeting. I forget who opened the meeting. I was called to offer the benediction. I think my father, John W. Woolley, offered the opening prayer. There were present at the meeting, in addition to President Taylor, George Q. Cannon, L. John Nuttall, John W. Woolley, Samuel Bateman, Charles Wilkins, Charles Birrell, Daniel R. Bateman, Bishop Samuel Sedden, George Earl, my mother, Julia E. Woolley, my sister, Amy Woolley, and myself. The meeting was held from about 9 o’clock in the morning until 5 in the afternoon, without intermission, being about eight hours in all.
President Taylor called the meeting to order. He had the Manifesto, that had been prepared under the direction of George Q. Cannon, read over again. He then put each person under covenant that he or she would defend the principle of Celestial or plural marriage, and that they would consecrate their lives, liberty and property to this end, and that they personally would sustain and uphold that principle.
By that time we were all filled with the Holy Ghost. President Taylor and those present occupied about three hours up to this time. After placing us under covenant, he placed his finger on the document, his person rising from the floor about a foot or eighteen inches, and with countenance animated by the Spirit of the Lord, and raising his right hand to the square, he said, “Sign that document? -- Never! I would suffer my right hand to be severed from my body first. Sanction it—never! I would suffer my tongue to be torn from its roots in my mouth before I would sanction it!”
After that he talked for about an hour and then sat down and wrote the revelation which was given him by the Lord upon the question of Plural Marriage (the text of which revelation is given above). Then he talked to us for some time, and said, “Some of you will be handled and ostracized and cast out from the Church by your brethren because of your faithfulness and integrity to this principle, and some of you may have to surrender your lives because of the same, but woe, woe, unto those who shall bring these troubles upon you.” (Three of us were handled and ostracized for supporting and sustaining this principle. There are only three left who were at the meeting mentioned—Daniel R. Bateman, George Earl, and myself. So far as I know, those of them who have passed away all stood firm to the covenants entered into from that day to the day of their deaths.)
After the meeting referred to, President Taylor had L. John Nuttall write five copies of the revelation. He called five of us together: Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, George Q. Cannon, John W. Woolley, and myself.
He then set us apart and placed us under covenant that while we lived we would see to it that no year passed by without children being born in the principle of plural marriage. We were given authority to ordain others if necessary to carry this work on, they in turn to be given authority to ordain others when necessary, under the direction of the worthy senior (by ordination), so that there should be no cessation in the work. He then gave each of us a copy of the revelation.
I am the only one of the five now living, and so far as I know all five of the brethren remained true and faithful to the covenants they entered into, and to the responsibilities placed upon them at that time.
During the eight hours we were together, and while President Taylor was talking to us, he frequently arose and stood above the floor, and his countenance and being were so enveloped by light and glory that it was difficult for us to look upon him.
He stated that the document (referring to the Manifesto) was from the lower regions. He stated that many of the things he had told us we would forget and they would be taken from us, but that they would return to us in due time as needed, and from this fact we would know that the same was from the Lord. This has been literally fulfilled. Many of the things I forgot, but they are coming to me gradually, and those things that come to me are as clear as on the day on which they were given.
President Taylor said that the time would come when many of the Saints would apostatize because of this principle. He said “one-half of this people would apostatize over the principle for which we are now in hiding; yea, and possibly one-half of the other half” (rising off the floor while making the statement). He also said the day will come when a document similar to that (Manifesto) then under consideration would beadopted by the Church, following which “APOSTASY AND WHOREDOM would be rampant in the Church.”
He said that in the time of the seventh President of this Church, the Church would go into bondage both temporally and spiritually and in that day (the day of bondage) the one Mighty and Strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants would come.
Among other things stated by President Taylor on this occasion was this, “I would be surprised if ten per cent of those who claim to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood will remain true and faithful to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, at the time of the seventh president, and that there would be thousands that think they hold the priesthood at that time, but would not have it properly conferred upon them.”
John Taylor set the five mentioned apart and gave them authority to perform marriage ceremonies, and also to set others apart to do the same thing as long as they remained upon the earth; and while doing so, the Prophet Joseph Smith stood by directing the proceedings. Two of us had not met the Prophet Joseph Smith in his mortal lifetime and we—Charles H. Wilkins and myself—were introduced to him and shook hands with him.
(Signed) LORIN C. WOOLLEY.
Daniel R. Bateman, being present while the above experience was related by Brother Woolley, testified as follows: “I was privileged to be at the meeting of September 27, 1886, spoken of by Brother Woolley, I myself acting as one of the guards for the brethren during those exciting times. The proceedings of the meeting, as related by Brother Woolley, are correct in every detail. I was not present when the five spoken of by Brother Woolley were set apart for special work, but have on different occasions heard the details of the same related by Brother Lorin C. Woolley and John W. Woolley, and from all the circumstances with which I am familiar, I firmly believe the testimony of these two brethren to be true.”
Additional Corroborative Evidence
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