Nearly all of your facts about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS-Christian religion are skewed if you get your facts from anyone in the media. Along with the Bible and the Book of Mormon; the Journal of Discourses, Truth Magazine and the Doctrine and Covenants have commandments, sermons and historical relevance to FLDS people.
Today the word "child" is so often negatively referred to that we don't see the age nor the maturity of that individual. Yet at 13, a youth who is not morally inclined is free to be promiscuous in our society as long as he/she is with another young person. In this case, no-one is punished by our laws. It wouldn't even phase our senses if that young one had multiple partners. It might bother a bit to see that young teen becoming a parent. It is fine with our sick society that abortion be used here instead. Doing the right thing by marrying, on the other-hand, is severely frowned upon. Even the so-called Christian-Right fight against the thought of a 13 year young parent being married to the co-parent/partner. This is not Christ-like to force. Nowhere in the Bible does it refer to any age as preferred marriage criteria.
God has blessed the bodies of His children to develop in their early teens. Also, as far as I am aware, in the history of the FLDS or the LDS sects since 1830, that there were not more than 2 instances under the age of 14 ever married. It is not very common there with the FLDS for anyone to be married younger than 18(contrary to popular belief). Warren Jeffs is currently awaiting extradition to Texas. He was freed by Arizona and his trial in Utah was deemed a mistrial. So far he has been blessed by God like the Lord Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith was. It is just not his time.
Showing posts with label 52-year-old FLDS leader. Show all posts
Showing posts with label 52-year-old FLDS leader. Show all posts
Thursday, August 19, 2010
Saturday, April 17, 2010
The Ongoing Cases Against FLDS by Authorities
I say when you excuse Texas Judge Walther for all of the false righteousness and indignation toward a religious organization with no care for the Constitution, I am disappointed. Don't you know that your rights are at risk when others' are taken. Self righteousness has too much power here. These are God-fearing, praying and honest people. I know, I was one of them long ago. There is no evil intent in their hearts.
The way the raids were handled, was by itself, criminal. YFZ Ranch was designed as a gated community with a religious effort. It was an early Mormon plan since Joseph Smith Jr. made it an important goal. There was no one person who ran every household.
All evidence should be returned and all efforts while using the evidences stolen by authorities legally cannot be used. The search warrant was not legal that day of the raid.
The way the raids were handled, was by itself, criminal. YFZ Ranch was designed as a gated community with a religious effort. It was an early Mormon plan since Joseph Smith Jr. made it an important goal. There was no one person who ran every household.
All evidence should be returned and all efforts while using the evidences stolen by authorities legally cannot be used. The search warrant was not legal that day of the raid.
Tuesday, April 6, 2010
My Discussion With A couple of Commenters on a news article
IMoronMoronI: From the accounts that I have read, stealing from the government is part of the culture of the people of Hildale. A man that has one wife recognized by the government and than other spiritual wives not recognized by the government, receiving welfare as "single mothers" is fraudulent, dishonest and immoral. Normal people not of that culture have a hard time believing that if they are thieving liars without conviction on one hand, what prevents them from being thieving liars on the other? The most bothersome thing to me is that somehow their religious views justify this behavior. No wonder so many people are turned off against religion! Who wants to go to heaven, if heaven is filled with the same kind of lying cheaters that make hell on earth?
I replied: You read from misinformed hearsay from prejudiced people then. I will tell you that there is very little, if any fraud. These people are not allowed to use the tax write-offs and other sneaky legal ways that you or I would be able to use, to help them. You see, we can use, for example, up to 4 children as a write-off. But what if there were 18 children? I think that if they are not permitted to use the same methods that you or I would use to supplement their livelihood, then why not use an unusually available legal method then? You think like a Collective Moralist and not as an open minded, spiritual individual. Don't talk to me about how laws are to be followed, when those who breach it in the government, like Presidents Obama and George Bush who wanted to change the Constitution to their political benefit.
I replied to mormonssuck: You have no idea how honest and honorable these service-men and women are. How sad that they are being politically targeted.
IMoronMoronI: Honest? Honorable? You're one of them, right? So tell me, how can a religion esteem themselves so highly and everyone outside of their religion so low? To make matters worse and more unbelievable is that this religion is ripping us, "low" unbelieving people, off! I don't like using the word cult, because I'm not sure of a religion that isn't a cult, but this religion really makes religion look bad. Underage marriage, multiple spiritual wives adds up to perversion. Not finishing their homes in some kind of scheme to avoid taxes, welfare fraud adds up to greed and thievery. Kicking out boys for wanting to date girls, adds up to heartless and cruel.
Honest and honorable you say! Hm-mm! I can only go by outward appearance, but God is going to judge the heart.
I Replied: I am not one of "them." I am sad to report that I don't measure-up like you don't measure-up to them. You see, We are on the outside looking in. The only difference between us is that I know who God is, and how to become like him. You do not, my friend. These godly prayerful people are persecuted and prosecuted for their beliefs and those bureaucrats have no idea of Christianity, who seek to destroy any sign of it, are setting the area on fire by themselves.
I replied: All I know is the oil that the virgins carried that were able to see the bridegroom was a reference to the "Spirit of God". You can't have it and still be able to accuse these good people of evils.
You think that the government can't be the enemy?
You think you know the good book enough to tell me that the government has no evil intent toward the Godly?
You didn't read the Book of Daniel well enough.
IMoronMoronI: First off, God's Word says that those who do good need not fear the government.
Second, do tell-you know how to be like Him and you know HIM and you believe that I do not. Explain to me what your extraordinary discernment, or perhaps prophetic bussom burnings are telling you. How are you going to become like Him and what does that mean? And what disqualifies me from becoming like Him?
BTW, they are persecuted and prosecuted for their organized crime. The government carries not it's sword in vain.
IMoronMoronI: Of course I think the government can be the enemy. In fact in Acts we are asked, "shall I obey God rather than man?" and He went on to prove, even unto death that he would obey God. But the evils that come out of Hildale are not hidden under a rock. They are set out before us and every normal person knows that their dealings are dishonest, and that is their own doing and not our poor judgment. I'm sure there are some good people that that are ignorant to the corruption, God bless them.
I'm sure you are familiar with this text but I want to send--
IMoronMoronI: for any religious person that has overlooked it. Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is what the BOM has done and if there was an angel of light that bore testimony to the BOM in addition to what God had already spoken Paul says let them be accursed.
Much more could be said, for now i will say that there is a better way. Start at the beginning, at the historical Word of God. Take a look at all of the artifacts found and being found that give support. Once you have gained trust in the entire Word, then proceed to newer works and see if they harmonize.
I replied: I wish you your happy night. I also wish you could try to pray and not use the Bible as a beginning and end to God's dealings with man. As far as the Book of Revelations goes, could you tell me if Paul was the last to write or was John? Revelations was written by John, but the compilers may not know who finished their writings last. What I am saying is that the reference was to his revelation and not to the Bible. You have been duped by your preacher. God will always inspire man as long as he lives, and is receptive to His Spirit.
I replied: You read from misinformed hearsay from prejudiced people then. I will tell you that there is very little, if any fraud. These people are not allowed to use the tax write-offs and other sneaky legal ways that you or I would be able to use, to help them. You see, we can use, for example, up to 4 children as a write-off. But what if there were 18 children? I think that if they are not permitted to use the same methods that you or I would use to supplement their livelihood, then why not use an unusually available legal method then? You think like a Collective Moralist and not as an open minded, spiritual individual. Don't talk to me about how laws are to be followed, when those who breach it in the government, like Presidents Obama and George Bush who wanted to change the Constitution to their political benefit.
I replied to mormonssuck: You have no idea how honest and honorable these service-men and women are. How sad that they are being politically targeted.
IMoronMoronI: Honest? Honorable? You're one of them, right? So tell me, how can a religion esteem themselves so highly and everyone outside of their religion so low? To make matters worse and more unbelievable is that this religion is ripping us, "low" unbelieving people, off! I don't like using the word cult, because I'm not sure of a religion that isn't a cult, but this religion really makes religion look bad. Underage marriage, multiple spiritual wives adds up to perversion. Not finishing their homes in some kind of scheme to avoid taxes, welfare fraud adds up to greed and thievery. Kicking out boys for wanting to date girls, adds up to heartless and cruel.
Honest and honorable you say! Hm-mm! I can only go by outward appearance, but God is going to judge the heart.
I Replied: I am not one of "them." I am sad to report that I don't measure-up like you don't measure-up to them. You see, We are on the outside looking in. The only difference between us is that I know who God is, and how to become like him. You do not, my friend. These godly prayerful people are persecuted and prosecuted for their beliefs and those bureaucrats have no idea of Christianity, who seek to destroy any sign of it, are setting the area on fire by themselves.
I replied: All I know is the oil that the virgins carried that were able to see the bridegroom was a reference to the "Spirit of God". You can't have it and still be able to accuse these good people of evils.
You think that the government can't be the enemy?
You think you know the good book enough to tell me that the government has no evil intent toward the Godly?
You didn't read the Book of Daniel well enough.
IMoronMoronI: First off, God's Word says that those who do good need not fear the government.
Second, do tell-you know how to be like Him and you know HIM and you believe that I do not. Explain to me what your extraordinary discernment, or perhaps prophetic bussom burnings are telling you. How are you going to become like Him and what does that mean? And what disqualifies me from becoming like Him?
BTW, they are persecuted and prosecuted for their organized crime. The government carries not it's sword in vain.
IMoronMoronI: Of course I think the government can be the enemy. In fact in Acts we are asked, "shall I obey God rather than man?" and He went on to prove, even unto death that he would obey God. But the evils that come out of Hildale are not hidden under a rock. They are set out before us and every normal person knows that their dealings are dishonest, and that is their own doing and not our poor judgment. I'm sure there are some good people that that are ignorant to the corruption, God bless them.
I'm sure you are familiar with this text but I want to send--
IMoronMoronI: for any religious person that has overlooked it. Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is what the BOM has done and if there was an angel of light that bore testimony to the BOM in addition to what God had already spoken Paul says let them be accursed.
Much more could be said, for now i will say that there is a better way. Start at the beginning, at the historical Word of God. Take a look at all of the artifacts found and being found that give support. Once you have gained trust in the entire Word, then proceed to newer works and see if they harmonize.
I replied: I wish you your happy night. I also wish you could try to pray and not use the Bible as a beginning and end to God's dealings with man. As far as the Book of Revelations goes, could you tell me if Paul was the last to write or was John? Revelations was written by John, but the compilers may not know who finished their writings last. What I am saying is that the reference was to his revelation and not to the Bible. You have been duped by your preacher. God will always inspire man as long as he lives, and is receptive to His Spirit.
Tuesday, March 30, 2010
My response to a news article about Warren Jeffs
Warren is a hot political potato. Attorney Generals are re-elected on such controversial type pawns. He means little more to them. Jeffs has only done what his predecessors have done since Joseph Smith Jr. was alive.
Sunday, February 14, 2010
A response of mine to a media reader's comment
Are you aware that FLDS do not trade their precious daughters?
There are no FLDS men that I know who would let his daughter go to just any man.
The Prophet is the matchmaker. He is the last one who has the decision that she is ready. He does choose who marries who. The young ladies are expected to be responsible, kind, and prayerful before they are deemed worthy to marry. The parents of the potential bride are the first to give their blessing to her by bringing her to visit the prophet or his counselors on her behalf.
She had to be willing and able to marry someone she is matched with. She is aware of her decision and is most likely anxious to be placed by a man who is chosen by the preacher/leader.
The man that the girl(usually 18-22) will be chosen for is quite young himself(usually 20-30). There few are exceptions.
There are no FLDS men that I know who would let his daughter go to just any man.
The Prophet is the matchmaker. He is the last one who has the decision that she is ready. He does choose who marries who. The young ladies are expected to be responsible, kind, and prayerful before they are deemed worthy to marry. The parents of the potential bride are the first to give their blessing to her by bringing her to visit the prophet or his counselors on her behalf.
She had to be willing and able to marry someone she is matched with. She is aware of her decision and is most likely anxious to be placed by a man who is chosen by the preacher/leader.
The man that the girl(usually 18-22) will be chosen for is quite young himself(usually 20-30). There few are exceptions.
Saturday, September 26, 2009
More proof that LDS members as Government officials are persecuting FLDS
Feds are stymied in probes of FLDS
Federal authorities have been probing allegations of crimes involving the Fundamentalist LDS Church and its leader Warren Jeffs for years -- but have been unable to develop enough probable cause to launch a full-scale investigation or bring charges.
"Those cases where you hear rumor and innuendo about child brides and corruption, we have to have reasonable suspicion to open an investigation," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman said Thursday. "Beyond that, we have to have probable cause to even get search warrants and grand jury subpoenas. That we have not been able to establish on numerous occasions."
In an extensive interview with the Deseret News on Thursday, Tolman and Tim Fuhrman, the special agent-in-charge of the Salt Lake City office of the FBI, detailed their efforts to investigate crimes within the FLDS Church. They also spoke against the need for a federal task force on polygamy-related crimes, despite a push by the U.S. Senate majority leader and the Utah and Arizona attorneys general.
"The crimes that are being alleged or that there is suspicion, these are predominantly state crimes," Tolman said. "I think it's a rush to judgment to think that a federal task force is the answer."
Investigations
The U.S. Attorney for Utah confirmed to the Deseret News his office has looked at the FLDS Church for possible violations of Mafia-style racketeering and corruption laws.
"We remain open to pursuing that line of investigation," Tolman said. "Investigating a RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) charge is labor intensive, requires someone on the inside and has to be done with great patience. It's certainly not something that would result in a raid on the FLDS and all the members and families in the community. We still would have to provide probable cause on each and every individual that's the target of the investigation."
Right now, Tolman said that all his office has is suspicion and nothing more. Child abuse, rape and incest are all state-level crimes. So is bigamy.
"We have the ability to prosecute transferring or crossing state lines for purposes of sex, and we had a case a couple of years ago that we investigated," Tolman said. "When the young woman was interviewed, she indicated that no sex had ever occurred. At that point we're very limited outside some evidence to help us establish probable cause."
It is a problem their state-level counterparts can relate to.
"That's been the challenge with these closed polygamy groups. You can't infiltrate them," said Kirk Torgensen, chief deputy of the Utah Attorney General's Office. "Getting intelligence and information is difficult."
It isn't for lack of trying, authorities insist.
"We open and close more investigations than we prosecute," said Fuhrman.
Probable cause
In 2003, a joint state and federal task force was convened to look into crimes within all of Utah's polygamous groups.
"We asked them to come out and take a more comprehensive look at things," Torgensen said. "The agencies came back and said, 'We're not finding anything."'
The U.S. Attorney's Office said it did not develop enough for subpoenas, search warrants or indictments.
"The fact that everyone may think something's going on ... ask Elliot Ness how easy it was," Tolman said. "He knew, and he knew Al Capone was involved. It still took quite a bit. It takes a lot, and it takes a concerted effort. Even though everyone may be clamoring, it doesn't make for a federal case."
Tolman said they still need probable cause.
"No matter what, we still have to abide by the Constitution and our criminal procedure rules," he said.
An attorney acting as a spokesman for the FLDS Church declined to comment on Tolman's remarks but said he could appreciate their approach toward probable cause.
"That's a much more responsible approach than what's been taken in Texas with respect to the Constitution," said Rod Parker.
The raid on the YFZ Ranch began April 3, when someone claiming to be a 16-year-old girl named "Sarah" called a family crisis shelter in San Angelo, Texas, saying she was pregnant and in an abusive polygamous marriage. Authorities are now investigating if the call was a hoax.
When Texas child welfare workers responded to the ranch, authorities said they found evidence of other abuse, including teenage mothers. That prompted a judge to order the removal of more than 450 children from the FLDS compound. They have since been placed in foster care homes across Texas.
Warren Jeffs
Federal prosecutors have leveled a charge against Warren Jeffs for unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.
Jeffs, at the time on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list, was arrested outside Las Vegas during a traffic stop in 2006. Typically, when a fugitive is arrested, federal authorities dismiss the charge. Instead, Jeffs was indicted by a grand jury.
The 52-year-old FLDS leader was convicted last year in Utah of rape as an accomplice, accusing him of performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin. In Arizona, Jeffs is facing more charges accusing him of similar crimes.
Ben Winslow Deseret News
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20080502/ai_n25395626/?tag=rel.res4
Federal authorities have been probing allegations of crimes involving the Fundamentalist LDS Church and its leader Warren Jeffs for years -- but have been unable to develop enough probable cause to launch a full-scale investigation or bring charges.
"Those cases where you hear rumor and innuendo about child brides and corruption, we have to have reasonable suspicion to open an investigation," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman said Thursday. "Beyond that, we have to have probable cause to even get search warrants and grand jury subpoenas. That we have not been able to establish on numerous occasions."
In an extensive interview with the Deseret News on Thursday, Tolman and Tim Fuhrman, the special agent-in-charge of the Salt Lake City office of the FBI, detailed their efforts to investigate crimes within the FLDS Church. They also spoke against the need for a federal task force on polygamy-related crimes, despite a push by the U.S. Senate majority leader and the Utah and Arizona attorneys general.
"The crimes that are being alleged or that there is suspicion, these are predominantly state crimes," Tolman said. "I think it's a rush to judgment to think that a federal task force is the answer."
Investigations
The U.S. Attorney for Utah confirmed to the Deseret News his office has looked at the FLDS Church for possible violations of Mafia-style racketeering and corruption laws.
"We remain open to pursuing that line of investigation," Tolman said. "Investigating a RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) charge is labor intensive, requires someone on the inside and has to be done with great patience. It's certainly not something that would result in a raid on the FLDS and all the members and families in the community. We still would have to provide probable cause on each and every individual that's the target of the investigation."
Right now, Tolman said that all his office has is suspicion and nothing more. Child abuse, rape and incest are all state-level crimes. So is bigamy.
"We have the ability to prosecute transferring or crossing state lines for purposes of sex, and we had a case a couple of years ago that we investigated," Tolman said. "When the young woman was interviewed, she indicated that no sex had ever occurred. At that point we're very limited outside some evidence to help us establish probable cause."
It is a problem their state-level counterparts can relate to.
"That's been the challenge with these closed polygamy groups. You can't infiltrate them," said Kirk Torgensen, chief deputy of the Utah Attorney General's Office. "Getting intelligence and information is difficult."
It isn't for lack of trying, authorities insist.
"We open and close more investigations than we prosecute," said Fuhrman.
Probable cause
In 2003, a joint state and federal task force was convened to look into crimes within all of Utah's polygamous groups.
"We asked them to come out and take a more comprehensive look at things," Torgensen said. "The agencies came back and said, 'We're not finding anything."'
The U.S. Attorney's Office said it did not develop enough for subpoenas, search warrants or indictments.
"The fact that everyone may think something's going on ... ask Elliot Ness how easy it was," Tolman said. "He knew, and he knew Al Capone was involved. It still took quite a bit. It takes a lot, and it takes a concerted effort. Even though everyone may be clamoring, it doesn't make for a federal case."
Tolman said they still need probable cause.
"No matter what, we still have to abide by the Constitution and our criminal procedure rules," he said.
An attorney acting as a spokesman for the FLDS Church declined to comment on Tolman's remarks but said he could appreciate their approach toward probable cause.
"That's a much more responsible approach than what's been taken in Texas with respect to the Constitution," said Rod Parker.
The raid on the YFZ Ranch began April 3, when someone claiming to be a 16-year-old girl named "Sarah" called a family crisis shelter in San Angelo, Texas, saying she was pregnant and in an abusive polygamous marriage. Authorities are now investigating if the call was a hoax.
When Texas child welfare workers responded to the ranch, authorities said they found evidence of other abuse, including teenage mothers. That prompted a judge to order the removal of more than 450 children from the FLDS compound. They have since been placed in foster care homes across Texas.
Warren Jeffs
Federal prosecutors have leveled a charge against Warren Jeffs for unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.
Jeffs, at the time on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list, was arrested outside Las Vegas during a traffic stop in 2006. Typically, when a fugitive is arrested, federal authorities dismiss the charge. Instead, Jeffs was indicted by a grand jury.
The 52-year-old FLDS leader was convicted last year in Utah of rape as an accomplice, accusing him of performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin. In Arizona, Jeffs is facing more charges accusing him of similar crimes.
Ben Winslow Deseret News
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20080502/ai_n25395626/?tag=rel.res4
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