Facts Be Known

Polygamy is Supported in the Bible

2010-11-27T05:27:00.000-08:00

In fact, in the Bible, Abraham had at least three wives, Jacob had at least four wives, and Moses had at least two. David had his wives taken from him by God through Nathan due to infidelity with a married woman. Jesus had a parable referring to polygamy and called the five of ten, who actually went to wed the groom, wise. He was referring to all men and women in the last days, but could have referred to orphans or princes(instead of virgins)and to a king(instead of bridegroom).

UPDATE! Barack Obama Birth Certificate Forgery Confirmed

2010-08-19T17:58:00.000-07:00

Underaged Marriage in the Bible

2010-08-19T06:39:00.000-07:00

Nearly all of your facts about Warren Jeffs and the FLDS-Christian religion are skewed if you get your facts from anyone in the media. Along with the Bible and the Book of Mormon; the Journal of Discourses, Truth Magazine and the Doctrine and Covenants have commandments, sermons and historical relevance to FLDS people.
Today the word "child" is so often negatively referred to that we don't see the age nor the maturity of that individual. Yet at 13, a youth who is not morally inclined is free to be promiscuous in our society as long as he/she is with another young person. In this case, no-one is punished by our laws. It wouldn't even phase our senses if that young one had multiple partners. It might bother a bit to see that young teen becoming a parent. It is fine with our sick society that abortion be used here instead. Doing the right thing by marrying, on the other-hand, is severely frowned upon. Even the so-called Christian-Right fight against the thought of a 13 year young parent being married to the co-parent/partner. This is not Christ-like to force. Nowhere in the Bible does it refer to any age as preferred marriage criteria.
God has blessed the bodies of His children to develop in their early teens. Also, as far as I am aware, in the history of the FLDS or the LDS sects since 1830, that there were not more than 2 instances under the age of 14 ever married. It is not very common there with the FLDS for anyone to be married younger than 18(contrary to popular belief). Warren Jeffs is currently awaiting extradition to Texas. He was freed by Arizona and his trial in Utah was deemed a mistrial. So far he has been blessed by God like the Lord Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith was. It is just not his time.

Sweet Liberty and Truth: Does Islam incorporate Pagan rituals?

2010-08-17T20:21:00.000-07:00

Sweet Liberty and Truth: Does Islam incorporate Pagan rituals?

My Rant on The Comments I Have Been Hearing

2010-06-17T09:12:00.000-07:00

Do we make all marriages bad? Because that's what I am hearing. I can tell you that marriage is good for me. Plural marriage for me may be good too. Why restrict it? Some of the finest of God's servants had more wives than one. The Bible is full of references. Stop with the, I am better than you mask, and leave people to their religious lives. Especially when they are doing fine. I lived in the FLDS community. I don't now, so I can be objective about it. I will say, I prefer the way they do marriages over the way it is done anywhere else. The respect exhibited by the men toward the women is not as objects as some are misinformed, through propaganda, may conclude. No. Respect toward women there is admired by the youth, and that is why most children stay when they grow older. Young marriages are not common there. They are not forbidden, but are rather minuscule in number. Yet you would think that it is common, by the accounts of the media. It is not considered evil or wrong to marry young there. Because when girls think they are ready to marry, they have to have their parents agree, which is many times unlikely for the parents to agree. But when they do, they will present her to the prophet who will have her come back for multiple appointment sessions with the parents in tow. I will have you know that this is not unlike how the young men are treated. It is no laughing matter to the parents nor to the young people. The vows are taken seriously. Abuse is unlikely in case you are wondering. If a man is found to be abusive there, he will be sent out, and all he earned in his life will be given to a finer gentler more righteous man. Jeffs is being wrongfully targeted. It is due to the religious prejudices of those who hold authority in government. The laws that are being used to convict him are unconstitutional. Yet he has been hated by the media, the government and the LDS neighbors who just hate Warren Jeffs on the outset. There is no truth in their criticism except in their own paradigms.

Facts Be Known: The (so called) New Hope

2010-06-10T10:04:00.000-07:00

Facts Be Known: The (so called) New Hope

The (so called) New Hope

2010-06-10T08:25:00.000-07:00

The HOPE Organization is a non-profit group dedicated to assisting survivors of abuse within polygamous relationships on their courageous journey to personal freedom.

HOPE is a St. George, Utah based 501(c)(3) charity providing assistance to individuals and families to safely transition from a polygamous lifestyle into mainstream society.

HOPE's purpose is to offer support, protection, assistance, choices, opportunities and hope for the women, children, families and young adults (both male and female) who have been kicked out or have chosen to leave this culture. Sadly, too many women and children live under immense control, oppression and fear of eternal damnation, and they are caught in the cycle of abuse without a choice or a voice . . . We want to empower them!

Laws against these crimes are based in religion, which violates the separation of church and state. They are un-American, as they attempt to homogenize the country to a certain group's idea of morality, and that they create an oppressive society, restricting personal freedoms without justification. They teach irresponsibility, by not letting people deal with the natural consequences of their actions, but rather penalizing them whether or not their actions harmed anyone else.
Catching the "criminals" involved is an expensive affair. Victimless crimes draw manpower and funds away from crimes that do hurt innocent parties, and enforcement of the laws is not consistent enough to be an effective deterrent. I argue that actions to help people deal with problems caused by these illegal activities are effectively prevented by their criminalization -- for example, no one could be helped about their drinking problems during Prohibition. Additionally, he details how laws against victimless crimes paved the way for organized crime. from Wikipedia: Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country by Peter McWilliams

Muhammad was Christian

2010-05-13T11:42:00.000-07:00

I don't know who says Muhammad was illiterate. I am not excusing Islam as it is written in the Koran. I just know that Muhammad was learned in Christianity. His successors were not Christians even though he taught about Jesus. I believe they were blood hungry after Muhammad died. The so-called Christians back then were not kind to these people and they needed a leader. Muslims were defended back then, God saw they were humble and prayerful. I am Mormon. I love Christ. Prayer and humility and faith in Christ are the power in the Holy Ghost.

The Ongoing Cases Against FLDS by Authorities

2010-04-17T23:50:00.000-07:00

I say when you excuse Texas Judge Walther for all of the false righteousness and indignation toward a religious organization with no care for the Constitution, I am disappointed. Don't you know that your rights are at risk when others' are taken. Self righteousness has too much power here. These are God-fearing, praying and honest people. I know, I was one of them long ago. There is no evil intent in their hearts.
The way the raids were handled, was by itself, criminal. YFZ Ranch was designed as a gated community with a religious effort. It was an early Mormon plan since Joseph Smith Jr. made it an important goal. There was no one person who ran every household.
All evidence should be returned and all efforts while using the evidences stolen by authorities legally cannot be used. The search warrant was not legal that day of the raid.

Killing is wrong, including abortion

2010-04-08T13:06:00.000-07:00

Killing is one of the worst crimes because of the impact it has on the victim. Killing deprives the victim of life. The loss of life is the greatest possible loss anyone can suffer because it deprives us of all the experiences and enjoyments that otherwise would have been part of our futures, which we now value or would have come to value. If the loss of our valuable future is what makes killing you and me wrong, then abortion is equally wrong, because it deprives the fetus of its “future like ours”.

My Discussion With A couple of Commenters on a news article

2010-04-06T21:32:00.000-07:00

IMoronMoronI: From the accounts that I have read, stealing from the government is part of the culture of the people of Hildale. A man that has one wife recognized by the government and than other spiritual wives not recognized by the government, receiving welfare as "single mothers" is fraudulent, dishonest and immoral. Normal people not of that culture have a hard time believing that if they are thieving liars without conviction on one hand, what prevents them from being thieving liars on the other? The most bothersome thing to me is that somehow their religious views justify this behavior. No wonder so many people are turned off against religion! Who wants to go to heaven, if heaven is filled with the same kind of lying cheaters that make hell on earth?

I replied: You read from misinformed hearsay from prejudiced people then. I will tell you that there is very little, if any fraud. These people are not allowed to use the tax write-offs and other sneaky legal ways that you or I would be able to use, to help them. You see, we can use, for example, up to 4 children as a write-off. But what if there were 18 children? I think that if they are not permitted to use the same methods that you or I would use to supplement their livelihood, then why not use an unusually available legal method then? You think like a Collective Moralist and not as an open minded, spiritual individual. Don't talk to me about how laws are to be followed, when those who breach it in the government, like Presidents Obama and George Bush who wanted to change the Constitution to their political benefit.

I replied to mormonssuck: You have no idea how honest and honorable these service-men and women are. How sad that they are being politically targeted.

IMoronMoronI: Honest? Honorable? You're one of them, right? So tell me, how can a religion esteem themselves so highly and everyone outside of their religion so low? To make matters worse and more unbelievable is that this religion is ripping us, "low" unbelieving people, off! I don't like using the word cult, because I'm not sure of a religion that isn't a cult, but this religion really makes religion look bad. Underage marriage, multiple spiritual wives adds up to perversion. Not finishing their homes in some kind of scheme to avoid taxes, welfare fraud adds up to greed and thievery. Kicking out boys for wanting to date girls, adds up to heartless and cruel.
Honest and honorable you say! Hm-mm! I can only go by outward appearance, but God is going to judge the heart.

I Replied: I am not one of "them." I am sad to report that I don't measure-up like you don't measure-up to them. You see, We are on the outside looking in. The only difference between us is that I know who God is, and how to become like him. You do not, my friend. These godly prayerful people are persecuted and prosecuted for their beliefs and those bureaucrats have no idea of Christianity, who seek to destroy any sign of it, are setting the area on fire by themselves.

I replied: All I know is the oil that the virgins carried that were able to see the bridegroom was a reference to the "Spirit of God". You can't have it and still be able to accuse these good people of evils.
You think that the government can't be the enemy?
You think you know the good book enough to tell me that the government has no evil intent toward the Godly?
You didn't read the Book of Daniel well enough.

IMoronMoronI: First off, God's Word says that those who do good need not fear the government.
Second, do tell-you know how to be like Him and you know HIM and you believe that I do not. Explain to me what your extraordinary discernment, or perhaps prophetic bussom burnings are telling you. How are you going to become like Him and what does that mean? And what disqualifies me from becoming like Him?

BTW, they are persecuted and prosecuted for their organized crime. The government carries not it's sword in vain.

IMoronMoronI: Of course I think the government can be the enemy. In fact in Acts we are asked, "shall I obey God rather than man?" and He went on to prove, even unto death that he would obey God. But the evils that come out of Hildale are not hidden under a rock. They are set out before us and every normal person knows that their dealings are dishonest, and that is their own doing and not our poor judgment. I'm sure there are some good people that that are ignorant to the corruption, God bless them.
I'm sure you are familiar with this text but I want to send--

IMoronMoronI: for any religious person that has overlooked it. Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is what the BOM has done and if there was an angel of light that bore testimony to the BOM in addition to what God had already spoken Paul says let them be accursed.

Much more could be said, for now i will say that there is a better way. Start at the beginning, at the historical Word of God. Take a look at all of the artifacts found and being found that give support. Once you have gained trust in the entire Word, then proceed to newer works and see if they harmonize.

I replied: I wish you your happy night. I also wish you could try to pray and not use the Bible as a beginning and end to God's dealings with man. As far as the Book of Revelations goes, could you tell me if Paul was the last to write or was John? Revelations was written by John, but the compilers may not know who finished their writings last. What I am saying is that the reference was to his revelation and not to the Bible. You have been duped by your preacher. God will always inspire man as long as he lives, and is receptive to His Spirit.

My response to a news article about Warren Jeffs

2010-03-30T22:26:00.000-07:00

Warren is a hot political potato. Attorney Generals are re-elected on such controversial type pawns. He means little more to them. Jeffs has only done what his predecessors have done since Joseph Smith Jr. was alive.

Mark Shurtleff is running for U.S Senate

2010-03-26T19:55:00.000-07:00

Some people don't know that Shurtleff has been promising to be the advocate for gays and lesbians, and has been behind the prosecution of YFZ Ranch, FLDS people in Texas. Where there are now needless suffering babies, children and wives who are awaiting the release of their fathers and husbands. fathers whose only crime was to continue practicing the Early Mormon beliefs started and upheld by the same religious leaders Mark professes to follow and revere. yet he claims to be an advocate of the family. There are many stories throughout Utah also, where prejudices of the few friends of Shurtleff have tortured the hearts of many patriotic freedom loving Utahans. So what if they are Fundamentalist Mormons.

A reply to comments accompanying 75 year sentence of Merril Jessop Jr.

2010-03-20T08:28:00.000-07:00

We are not able to see how the wife in question wanted nothing to do with the prosecution. You think that she had to have been assaulted. No. Shame on all of those prosecutors. Shame on you who hate Merrill Jessop. I am embarrassed for you. Just a few short years ago, it was not illegal for them to marry, by age requirements. It was not legal since 1880 for anyone to marry a plural wife, especially because the religious organization LDS Church required it as a tenant of the religious laws. basically, the unconstitutional law against a religion is upheld and has been for way too long. FLDS should have been excused for polygamy and bigamy as long as it was performed by the religious organization.

Another of my replies to media

2010-03-08T00:55:00.000-08:00

I am an ex-FLDS and want you to know that you have no true connection to what you are talking about. You should try to inform yourself. There is so few marriages between men and any female younger than 18. When you assume this, you can lose your credibility.
Try to understand that age is not a true definer of readiness for marriage.
There is no case where children are raped.
Also I want you to know that I believe, when marriage is made, there should be no law keeping them from consummating that union.
If you believe that good men of the Bible were polygamists, then you should at least give FLDS men the benefit of the doubt.
The "Lost Boys" is a sensationalized media event.
If you interviewed most of the crew that were representing that bunch of boys, you would find that they were invited under false pretenses to that meeting and their names on a list didn't reflect the facts. My brother was one of the ones mentioned, but was not truly affiliated with that movement.

A response of mine to a media reader's comment

2010-02-14T13:19:00.000-08:00

Are you aware that FLDS do not trade their precious daughters?
There are no FLDS men that I know who would let his daughter go to just any man.
The Prophet is the matchmaker. He is the last one who has the decision that she is ready. He does choose who marries who. The young ladies are expected to be responsible, kind, and prayerful before they are deemed worthy to marry. The parents of the potential bride are the first to give their blessing to her by bringing her to visit the prophet or his counselors on her behalf.
She had to be willing and able to marry someone she is matched with. She is aware of her decision and is most likely anxious to be placed by a man who is chosen by the preacher/leader.
The man that the girl(usually 18-22) will be chosen for is quite young himself(usually 20-30). There few are exceptions.

True Christianity, LDS, FLDS -vs- Gays

2009-12-27T08:14:00.000-08:00

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Facts Be Known: Are you saved? Part 2

2009-09-26T20:59:00.000-07:00

Facts Be Known: Are you saved? Part 2

More proof that LDS members as Government officials are persecuting FLDS

2009-09-26T13:50:00.000-07:00

Feds are stymied in probes of FLDS

Federal authorities have been probing allegations of crimes involving the Fundamentalist LDS Church and its leader Warren Jeffs for years -- but have been unable to develop enough probable cause to launch a full-scale investigation or bring charges.
"Those cases where you hear rumor and innuendo about child brides and corruption, we have to have reasonable suspicion to open an investigation," U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman said Thursday. "Beyond that, we have to have probable cause to even get search warrants and grand jury subpoenas. That we have not been able to establish on numerous occasions."
In an extensive interview with the Deseret News on Thursday, Tolman and Tim Fuhrman, the special agent-in-charge of the Salt Lake City office of the FBI, detailed their efforts to investigate crimes within the FLDS Church. They also spoke against the need for a federal task force on polygamy-related crimes, despite a push by the U.S. Senate majority leader and the Utah and Arizona attorneys general.
"The crimes that are being alleged or that there is suspicion, these are predominantly state crimes," Tolman said. "I think it's a rush to judgment to think that a federal task force is the answer."

Investigations
The U.S. Attorney for Utah confirmed to the Deseret News his office has looked at the FLDS Church for possible violations of Mafia-style racketeering and corruption laws.
"We remain open to pursuing that line of investigation," Tolman said. "Investigating a RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act) charge is labor intensive, requires someone on the inside and has to be done with great patience. It's certainly not something that would result in a raid on the FLDS and all the members and families in the community. We still would have to provide probable cause on each and every individual that's the target of the investigation."
Right now, Tolman said that all his office has is suspicion and nothing more. Child abuse, rape and incest are all state-level crimes. So is bigamy.
"We have the ability to prosecute transferring or crossing state lines for purposes of sex, and we had a case a couple of years ago that we investigated," Tolman said. "When the young woman was interviewed, she indicated that no sex had ever occurred. At that point we're very limited outside some evidence to help us establish probable cause."
It is a problem their state-level counterparts can relate to.
"That's been the challenge with these closed polygamy groups. You can't infiltrate them," said Kirk Torgensen, chief deputy of the Utah Attorney General's Office. "Getting intelligence and information is difficult."
It isn't for lack of trying, authorities insist.
"We open and close more investigations than we prosecute," said Fuhrman.

Probable cause
In 2003, a joint state and federal task force was convened to look into crimes within all of Utah's polygamous groups.
"We asked them to come out and take a more comprehensive look at things," Torgensen said. "The agencies came back and said, 'We're not finding anything."'
The U.S. Attorney's Office said it did not develop enough for subpoenas, search warrants or indictments.
"The fact that everyone may think something's going on ... ask Elliot Ness how easy it was," Tolman said. "He knew, and he knew Al Capone was involved. It still took quite a bit. It takes a lot, and it takes a concerted effort. Even though everyone may be clamoring, it doesn't make for a federal case."
Tolman said they still need probable cause.
"No matter what, we still have to abide by the Constitution and our criminal procedure rules," he said.
An attorney acting as a spokesman for the FLDS Church declined to comment on Tolman's remarks but said he could appreciate their approach toward probable cause.
"That's a much more responsible approach than what's been taken in Texas with respect to the Constitution," said Rod Parker.
The raid on the YFZ Ranch began April 3, when someone claiming to be a 16-year-old girl named "Sarah" called a family crisis shelter in San Angelo, Texas, saying she was pregnant and in an abusive polygamous marriage. Authorities are now investigating if the call was a hoax.
When Texas child welfare workers responded to the ranch, authorities said they found evidence of other abuse, including teenage mothers. That prompted a judge to order the removal of more than 450 children from the FLDS compound. They have since been placed in foster care homes across Texas.

Warren Jeffs
Federal prosecutors have leveled a charge against Warren Jeffs for unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.
Jeffs, at the time on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list, was arrested outside Las Vegas during a traffic stop in 2006. Typically, when a fugitive is arrested, federal authorities dismiss the charge. Instead, Jeffs was indicted by a grand jury.
The 52-year-old FLDS leader was convicted last year in Utah of rape as an accomplice, accusing him of performing a marriage between a 14-year-old girl and her 19-year-old cousin. In Arizona, Jeffs is facing more charges accusing him of similar crimes.
Ben Winslow Deseret News
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20080502/ai_n25395626/?tag=rel.res4

Are You Saved? Part 3

2009-09-23T08:56:00.000-07:00

The Latter-day Saint, who is far from the bosom of the Church, whose home is in distant climes, sighs, and earnestly prays each day of his life for the Lord to open his way, that he may mingle with his brethren in Zion, for he supposes that his happiness would then be complete, but in this his expectations will be in a measure vain, for happiness that is real and lasting in its nature cannot be enjoyed by mortals, for it is altogether out of keeping with this transitory state.

If a man's capacity be limited to the things of this world, if he reach no further than he can see with his eyes, feel with his hands, and understand with the ability of the natural man, still he is as earnestly engaged in securing his salvation, as others are, who possess a superior intellect, and are also pursuing the path of salvation, in their estimation, though it result in nothing more than a good name, or the honors of this world. Each, according to his capacity—to the natural organization of the human system, which is liable to be operated upon by the circumstances and influences by which it is surrounded, is as eager to obtain that which he supposes is salvation, as I am to obtain salvation in the Eternal world.

The object of a true salvation, correctly and minutely understood, changes the course of mankind. Persons who are taught by their teachers, friends, and acquaintances, are traditionated, from their youth up, into the belief that there is no God, or intelligent beings, other than those that they see with the natural eye, or naturally comprehend; that there is no hereafter; that at death, all life and intelligence are annihilated. Such persons are as firm in their belief, and as strenuous in argument, in support of those doctrines, as others are in the belief of the existence of an Eternal God. The early customs and teachings of parents and friends, to a greater or less degree, influence the minds of children, but when they are disposed to inquire at the hands of Him who has eternal intelligence to impart to them, when their understandings are enlarged, when their minds are enlightened by the Spirit of truth, so that they can see things that are unseen by the natural eye, they may then be corrected in their doctrine and belief, and in their manner of life, but not until then.

How difficult it is to teach the natural man, who comprehends nothing more than that which he sees with the natural eye! How hard it is for him to believe! How difficult would be the task to make the philosopher, who, for many years, has argued himself into the belief that his spirit is no more after his body sleeps in the grave, believe that his intelligence came from eternity, and is as eternal, in its nature, as the elements, or as the Gods. Such doctrine by him would be considered vanity and foolishness, it would be entirely beyond his comprehension. It is difficult, indeed, to remove an opinion or belief into which he has argued himself from the mind of the natural man. Talk to him about angels, heavens, God, immortality, and eternal lives, and it is like sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal to his ears; it has no music to him; there is nothing in it that charms his senses, soothes his feelings, attracts his attention, or engages his affections, in the least; to him it is all vanity. To say that the human family are not seeking salvation, is contrary to my experience, and to the experience of every other person with whom I have any acquaintance. They are all for salvation, some in one way, and some in another; but all is darkness and confusion. If the Lord does not speak from heaven, and touch the eyes of their understanding by His Spirit, who can instruct or guide them to good? who can give them words of eternal life? It is not in the power of man to do it; but when the Lord gives His Spirit to a person, or to a people, they can then hear, believe, and be instructed. An Elder of Israel may preach the principles of the Gospel, from first to last, as they were taught to him, to a congregation ignorant of them; but if he does not do it under the influence of the Spirit of the Lord, he cannot enlighten that congregation on those principles, it is impossible. Job said that "There is a spirit in man, and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." Unless we enjoy that understanding in this probation, we cannot grow or increase, we cannot be made acquainted with the principles of truth and righteousness so as to become exalted. Admit that the Spirit of the Lord should give us understanding, what would it prove to us? It would prove to me, at least, and what I may safely say to this congregation, that Zion is here. Whenever we are disposed to give ourselves perfectly to righteousness, to yield all the powers and faculties of the soul (which is the spirit and the body, and it is there where righteousness dwells); when we are swallowed up in the will of Him who has called us; when we enjoy the peace and the smiles of our Father in Heaven, the things of His Spirit, and all the blessings we are capacitated to receive and improve upon, then are we in Zion, that is Zion. What will produce the opposite? Hearkening and giving way to evil, nothing else will.

If a community of people are perfectly devoted to the cause of righteousness, truth, light, virtue, and every principle and attribute of the holy Gospel, we may say of that people, as the ancient Apostle said to his brethren, "Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates;" there is a throne for the Lord Almighty to sit and reign upon, there is a resting place for the Holy Ghost, there is a habitation of the Father and the Son. We are the temples of God, but when we are overcome of evil by yielding to temptation, we deprive ourselves of the privilege of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, taking up their abode and dwelling with us. We are the people, by our calling and profession, and ought to be by our daily works, of whom it should be truly said, "Ye are the temples of our God." Let me ask, what is there to prevent any person in this congregation from being so blessed, and becoming a holy temple fit for the in-dwelling of the Holy Ghost? Has any being in heaven or on earth done aught to prevent you from becoming so blessed? No, but why the people are not so privileged I will leave you to judge. I would to God that every soul who professes to be a Latter-day Saint was of that character, a holy temple for the in-dwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, but it is not so. Is there any individual within the sound of my voice to day, that has received the Holy Ghost through the principles of the Gospel, and at the same time has not received a love for them? I will answer that question. Wait and see who it is that falls out by the way; who it is in whom the seed of truth has been sown, but has not taken root; and then you will know the individuals who have received the truth, but have never received a love of it—they do not love it for itself. What a delightful aspect would this community present if all men and women, old and young, were disposed to leave off their own sins and follies, and overlook those of their neighbors; if they would cease watching their neighbors for iniquity, and watch that they themselves might be free from it! if they were trying with all their powers to sanctify the Lord in their hearts, and would prove, by their actions, that they had received the truth and the love of it! if all individuals would watch themselves, that they do not speak against the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, nor in short against any being in heaven or on earth. Strange as this may appear, there have been men in 'this Church that have done it, and probably will be again! If this people would be careful not to do anything to displease the spirits of those who have lived on the earth, and have been justified, and have gone to rest, and would so conduct themselves, that no reasonable being upon the face of the earth could find fault with them, what kind of society should we have? Why every man's mouth would be filled with blessings, every man's hand would be put forth to do good, and every woman and child in all their intercourse would be praising God, and blessing each other. Would not Zion be here? It would. What hinders you from doing this? What is the Lord or the people doing to cause this one and that one to commit sin with a high hand, in secret and in the open streets?

If Elders of Israel use language which is not proper for the lips of a Saint, such Elders are under condemnation, and the wrath of God abides upon them, those who do it have not the love of truth in their hearts, they do not love and honor the truth because it is the truth, but because it is powerful, and they wish to join with the strongest party. Do they love light because it is light? virtue because it is virtue? righteousness because it is righteousness? No. But these principles are almighty in their influence, and like the tornado in the forest, they sweep all before them, no argument can weigh against them, all the philosophy, knowledge, and wisdom of men may be set in array against them, but they are like chaff before a mighty wind, or like the morning dew before the sun in its strength such Elders embrace truth because it is all-powerful. When a man of God preaches the principles of the Gospel, all things give way before it, and some embrace it because it is so mighty. But by and bye those characters will fall out by the way, because the soil has not depth to nourish the seeds of truth. They receive it, but not the love of it; it dies, and they turn away. If every person who has embraced the Gospel would love it as he loves his life, would not society wear a different aspect from that of the present?

Are you saved? Part 2

2009-09-13T12:06:00.000-07:00

Descend from the busy, wealth-seeking middle classes, to the humbler
grade of society, and follow them in their various occupations and
pursuits, and each one of them is seeking earnestly that which he
imagines to be salvation. The poor, ragged, trembling mendicant, who
is forced by hunger and cold to drag his feeble body from under some
temporary shelter, to seek a bit of bread, or a coin from his more
fortunate fellow-mortal, if he can only obtain a few crusts of bread
to satisfy the hunger-worm that gnaws his vitals, and a few coppers to
pay his lodgings, he has attained to the summit of his expectations,
to what he sought for salvation, and he is comparatively happy, but
his happiness vanishes with the shades of night, and his misery comes
with the morning light. From the match-maker up to the tradesman, all
have an end in view, which they suppose will bring to them salvation.
King, courtier, commanders, officers, and common soldiers, the
commodore, and sailor before the mast, the fair-skinned Christian, and
the dark-skinned savage, [p.2] all, in their respective grades and
spheres of action, have a certain point in view, which, if they can
obtain, they suppose will put them in possession of salvation.

Are you saved?

2009-09-13T08:45:00.000-07:00

The plan of salvation, or, in other words, the redemption of fallen
beings, is a subject that should occupy the attention of all
intelligence that pertains to fallen beings. I do not like the term
fallen beings, but I will say, subjected intelligence, which term
suits me better—subjected to law, order, rule, and government. All
intelligences are deeply engaged in this grand object; not, however,
having a correct understanding of the true principle thereof, they
wander to and fro, some to the right, and some to the left. There is
not a person in this world, who is endowed with a common share of
intellect, but is laboring with all his power for salvation. Men vary
in their efforts to obtain that object, still their individual
conclusions are, that they will ultimately secure it. The merchant,
for instance, seeks with unwearied diligence, by night and by day,
facing misfortunes with a determined and persevering resistance,
enduring losses by sea and by land, with an unshaken patience, to
amass a sufficient amount of wealth to enable him to settle calmly
down in the midst of plenty in some opulent city, walk in the higher
classes of society, and perchance receive a worldly title, or worldly
honor, and enjoy. a freedom from all anxiety of business, and
constraint by poverty, throughout  the remainder of his life. He then
supposes he has obtained salvation.


Brigham Young,
In the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, January 16, 1853.
Found in the Journal of Discourses Vol. 1

LDS leadership involvement in the persecution of FLDS.

2009-09-12T17:33:00.000-07:00

Due to the following document that was issued by the church leaders, the FLDS were targeted by Mormons who were officials in Utah and Arizona. It also gave them the go-ahead to offer up unsolicited help to a Texas court with propaganda and accusations made and provided by hate-filled apostates who are not afraid to lie and create stories. There were no real facts for true litigation presented to multiple state and federal authorities by Mark Shurtleff. This seems like a good and wholesome document. The bold words are the part that gives license to pursue them. The current mainstream church members are informed and encouraged to deem polygyny as infidelity and immoral in this life.

The Family: A Proclamation to the World

The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. "Children are an heritage of the Lord" (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.

This feels intimidating to the regular plural marriage apologist(anyone who trusts the 132nd section of the Doctrine and Covenants to still apply to God's plan ).

It reminds me of the 11th article of the LDS faith. Maybe the one who wrote the proclamation was influenced by someone other than the sweet spirit of God.

Article of faith # 11: We claim the privilege of worshipping almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Persecution of polygyny continues...

2009-09-12T08:15:00.000-07:00

Jedediah M. Grant:

What does old Celsus say, who was a physician in the first century, whose medical works are esteemed very highly at the present time. His works on theology were burned with fire by the Catholics, they were so shocked at what they called their impiety Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, "The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him." After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. For instance, John the beloved disciple, writes in his second Epistle, "Unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth," Again, he says, "Having many things to write unto you (or communicate), I would not, write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you; and speak face to face, that our joy may be full." Again—"The children of thy elect sister greet thee." This ancient philosopher says they were both John's wives. Paul says, "Mine answer to them that do examine me is this:—.

Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas." He, according to Celsus, had a numerous train of wives.

The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were "Mormons."

JEDEDIAH M. GRANT, DELIVERED IN THE TABERNACLE, GREAT SALT LAKE CITY, AUG. 7, 1853.

Mormon Faith advice

2009-09-12T06:44:00.000-07:00

Jedediah M. Grant:

Talk about the Saints coming up to the Church of the First Born, to the state of perfection which Enoch attained; if men and women ever attain to this, they have got to be pure in all their habits, pure in their spirits as well as in their doctrines, for the Lord has told us what is right and required in those things...
I merely give this advice as some that might be applied to the Saints; as some of the every day and practical advice. I allude to the entire law of God, to all that the Lord our God has revealed, whether it pertains to the building of tabernacles or to the building of temples, or to faith, repentance, baptism, or the laying on of hands, or to the matrimonial relations, or to any doctrine or principle which relates to the salvation and glory of man. I say as one, that I have no fellowship for that man who will permit any person, over whom he has any rightful control, to ridicule the law, or any portion of the law, of God. I have no fellowship for those who allow any such proceedings in their houses, neither have I any fellowship for those who ridicule the law of God in any respect...for they are, in their persons, in their actions, and by their words, detrimental to their neighbors and the circles in which they move.

You who live here and round about, whether you are governed by a proper spirit in all these matters of doctrine I know not, but whether or not, these ideas will not hurt you. It is too late in the day to preach poor pussyism here, for you will have to live up to these practical duties of life, one and all, and be one, to pray often in public as well as in private, to honor God and His word in all your ways, and to see that His law is not dishonored by any under your control.

July 13, 1855, at a Conference held at Provo City, Utah

More Proof of LDS Church authorities acknowledgement of the "hand written" revelation document

2009-09-12T06:35:00.000-07:00

Items of special interest relative to the 1886 REVELATION. The following excerpts taken from the trial minutes of special meetings of the Twelve Apostles held in the Salt Lake Temple, February 22nd, and March 1st, 1911.

Those in Attendance were: Apostle John W. Taylor, President Francis M. Lyman and Apostles Heber J. Grant, Hyrum M. Smith, Charles W. Penrose, George F. Richards, Orson F. Whitney, David O. McKay, Anthony W. Ivins and Joseph F. Smith Jr.

President Francis M. Lyman presided and specifically informed Apostle John W. Taylor that he had been summoned to the trial, “TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.”

Apostle John W. Taylor: My father received a REVELATION which however was never presented to the Church, and I refer to this not because it was a REVELATION to my father; I don’t think a REVELATION because it came through him was any greater than one received through any other president of the Church, but because it seems to pertain to this question.

The REVELATION follows:

The REVELATION was read by Brother Penrose.

Apostle John W. Taylor: There are two things I am drawing your attention to. I am not in politics and very little in the Church, but I do this as a matter of privilege. This REVELATION is either true or it is false. Assuming that it is true, it seems to me that it would be better to offer leniency on the side of the Lord if you are going to offer any leniency, than on the side of politics....Brother Lyman what do you think of the REVELATION to my father?

President Francis M. Lyman: If you ask me if I believe in the plurality of wives, I would say that I believe it is true and will always be so, but the Lord may suspend the practice of it, and how much of the responsibility remains with the people and with the government, I don’t know. I am living with my wives now all the time, but I don’t hold the Church responsible for it but shoulder the responsibility myself....I have no fault to find with the REVELATION.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: Do you understand the free agency referred to in the REVELATION gives any one the privilege of taking a plural wife?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I take it that it refers to the individual and relieved the Church of the responsibility and placed the responsibility upon the individual.

President Francis M. Lyman: When did you find this REVELATION?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I found it on his desk immediately after his death, when I was appointed administrator of his estate....

President Francis M. Lyman: Do you think anyone can solemnize plural marriages with authority now?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I feel under certain circumstances they could, but it would depend on the circumstances.

President Francis M. Lyman: What conditions?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I fully explained that last time.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: What are your views with regard to that REVELATION?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I am not the one to pass upon that REVELATION. I think you are the ones to do that.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: What I desire to get at is as to how you view the matter, whether you have been guided by that in your case. You brought the REVELATION to us and it has never been accepted by the Church or presented to it.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I think the only thing to do is to go to the presiding priesthood of the Lord and get his idea on it and get him to inquire of the Lord what His mind is regarding it.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: I don’t think Brother Taylor should come here and tell us what we need to do. But what I wanted to know is what he thought the President meant by the REVELATION, whether the man was placed upon his own responsibility by that REVELATION and the President and Church relieved of all responsibility or not.

Apostle Anthony W. Ivins: Do you know how extensively this REVELATION has been circulated in times past and has guided people in their actions in this regard?

Apostle John W. Taylor: Brother Joseph Robinson came to me and asked for a copy of it upon the suggestion of Brother Cowley and he got it from Brother Badger. Brother Joseph F. Smith Jr. also got a copy but I don’t know how many have got copies from these.

Apostle Anthony W. Ivins: You don’t know what inference was placed upon it in early times?

Apostle John W. Taylor: No, I don’t know.

Apostle Anthony W. Ivins: I ask this question because I have heard some of the brethren interpret this REVELATION in this way, and I would like to find out to what extent they had the endorsement of the Church in view of this REVELATION, and what was the reason these brethren went to Canada and Mexico. Do you know what they based their belief upon; as they seemed to be sincere. Whether it was from this REVELATION or from the President of the Church or from what grounds were taken that they could come in contact with the law of the land and still win out. I would like to know from Brother Taylor what he knows about this and if they were justified in it.

Apostle John W. Taylor: President Smith has come out on numerous occasions with the statement that there have been no marriages of a polygamous nature solemnized with the approval of the Church, since 1890. He stands at the head of this dispensation at this moment and has adopted that policy, and as far as I am concerned I don’t want to come in conflict with President Smith on this proposition. I don’t know what others have taken from this REVELATION. If the REVELATION is true, it would certainly impress me that the Church was relieved of responsibility in this matter and the responsibility placed upon the individual.

Apostle Orson F. Whitney: Was it not the policy during your father’s administration to leave everything to the mind of the individual? I know this was the case with me when I went to inquire if I should take the test oath. I was told to exercise my own judgment. Also there is no authority as far as I can see, in that REVELATION, no authority given to man to exercise such authority in marrying any one, but the question of whether they should go into the relationship was left with the individual, as in President Young’s time men were commanded to go into it.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: I feel that we should not express our own views on this REVELATION but should have Brother Taylor’s views if he will give them, if not we can get through with that question.

President Francis M. Lyman: The date of this REVELATION is September 1886, four years before the manifesto of President Woodruff and I remember at that time that President Taylor and all his brethren were very strongly entrenched in the principle of plural marriage. From 1880 to 1890 men were almost commanded to enter it, especially the officials of the Church. We were all pretty well engaged in this question. The change came in 1890 when president Woodruff felt the necessity that plural marriage should cease and after that he felt just as strong against it, as President Taylor had felt for it before. It was subsequent to this that President Smith made his declaration that the Church took no responsibility for the unlawful co-habitation of those in plural marriage and the performance of plural marriages. I would like to ask if you have encouraged others to take plural wives, or taken them yourself or if you think these brethren who have copies of this REVELATION have taken it as an encouragement, for instance Brother Robinson.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I will answer that by asking if anyone you have had here before you has ever said that I encouraged him.

President Francis M. Lyman: No one except Wolff, and you admit having encouraged him under the direction of a superior officer.

Apostle David O. Mckay: I would like to know who the man is that directed you to instruct Brother Wolff to marry a certain party.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I would not wish to take issue with the President of the Church or anyone who is at the head of the Church. I went to President Smith’s office the other day and had a three and one-half hour talk with him and John Henry Smith and he said that he had never authorized anyone to perform a plural marriage. I am not saying that he is the one to whom I refer, but I do not want to say any more on this point.

Apostle Hyrum M. Smith: I would like Brother Taylor to feel that we are not persuading him or any other man to do them harm but simply to get at the bottom of these matters. I feel that you are responsible for the circulation of that REVELATION.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I am willing to put in a supplemental answer to the effect that I have never married anyone without the endorsement and authority of the President of the Church and, if you desire, I will give the names of those I have married, but I think this would be unwise....

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: Under this purported REVELATION from your father do you think this authority is given to anyone to perform a plural marriage on their own free agency?

Apostle John W. Taylor: If a man had been authorized in any way by authority to perform a marriage, under that REVELATION he would be.

(Signed)

John W Woolley

Lorin C Woolley

Daniel Bateman

George Q Cannon

L John Nuttall

Witness account

2009-09-12T06:31:00.000-07:00

Lorin C. Woolley related the following:

While the brethren were at the Carlisle residence (in Murray) in May or June of 1886, letters began to come to President John Taylor from such men as John Sharp, Horace Eldredge, William Jennings, John T. Cain, Abraham Hatch, President Cluff and many other leading men from all over the Church, asking the leaders to do something, as the Gentiles were talking of confiscating their property in connection with the property of the Church.

These letters not only came from those who were living in the plural marriage relation, but also from prominent men who were presiding in various offices in the Church who were not living in that relation. They all urged that something be done to satisfy the Gentiles so that their property would not be confiscated.

George Q. Cannon, on his own initiative, selected a committee comprising himself, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, John T. Caine and James Jack, to get up a statement or manifesto that would meet the objections urged by the brethren above named. They met from time to time to discuss the situation. From the White home, where President Taylor and companions stopped, after leaving the Carlisle home, they came out to father’s. George Q. Cannon would go and consult with the brethren of the committee, I taking him back and forth each day.

On September 26, 1886, George Q. Cannon, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, and others met with President John Taylor at my father’s residence at Centerville, Davis County, Utah, and presented a document for President Taylor’s consideration.

I had just got back from a three days’ trip, during most of which time I had been in the saddle, and being greatly fatigued, I had retired to rest.

Between one and two o’clock P.M. Brother Bateman came and woke me up and asked me to be at my father’s home, where a manifesto was to be discussed. I went there and found there were congregated Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, L. John Nuttall, Charles Birrell, George Q. Cannon, Franklin S. Richards and Hyrum B. Clawson.

We discussed the proposed Manifesto at length, but we were unable to become united in the discussion. Finally George Q. Cannon suggested that President Taylor take the matter up with the Lord and decide the same the next day.

Brothers Clawson and Richards were taken back to Salt Lake. That evening I was called to act as guard during the first part of the night, notwithstanding the fact that I was greatly fatigued on account of the three days’ trip I had just completed.

The brethren retired to bed soon after 9 o’clock. The sleeping rooms were inspected by the guards as was the custom. President Taylor’s room had no outside door. The windows were heavily screened.

Some time after the brethren retired and while I was reading the Doctrine and Covenants, I was suddenly attracted to a light appearing under the door leading to President Taylor’s room, and was at once startled to hear the voices of men talking there. There were three distinct voices. I was bewildered because it was my duty to keep people out of that room and evidently someone had entered without my knowing it. I made a hasty examination and found the door leading to the room bolted as usual. I then examined the outside of the house and found all the window screens intact. While examining the last window, and feeling greatly agitated, a voice spoke to me saying, “Can’t you feel the Spirit? Why should you worry?”

At this I returned to my post and continued to hear the voices in the room. They were so audible that although I did not see the parties I could place their positions in the room from the sound of their voices. The three voices continued until about midnight, when one of them left, and the other two continued. One of them I recognized as President John Taylor’s voice. I called Charles Birrell [Footnote: Charles Birrell was also a bodyguard of the brethren and was to take the second shift in watching on this night.] and we both sat up until eight o’clock the next morning.

When President Taylor came out of his room about eight o’clock of the morning of September 27, 1886, we could scarcely look at him on account of the brightness of his personage.

He stated, “Brethren, I have had a very pleasant conversation with Brother Joseph (Joseph Smith).” I said, “Boss, who is the man that was there until midnight?” He asked, “What do you know about it, Lorin?” I told him all about my experience. He said, “Brother Lorin, that was your Lord.”

We had no breakfast, but assembled ourselves in a meeting. I forget who opened the meeting. I was called to offer the benediction. I think my father, John W. Woolley, offered the opening prayer. There were present at the meeting, in addition to President Taylor, George Q. Cannon, L. John Nuttall, John W. Woolley, Samuel Bateman, Charles Wilkins, Charles Birrell, Daniel R. Bateman, Bishop Samuel Sedden, George Earl, my mother, Julia E. Woolley, my sister, Amy Woolley, and myself. The meeting was held from about 9 o’clock in the morning until 5 in the afternoon, without intermission, being about eight hours in all.

President Taylor called the meeting to order. He had the Manifesto, that had been prepared under the direction of George Q. Cannon, read over again. He then put each person under covenant that he or she would defend the principle of Celestial or plural marriage, and that they would consecrate their lives, liberty and property to this end, and that they personally would sustain and uphold that principle.
By that time we were all filled with the Holy Ghost. President Taylor and those present occupied about three hours up to this time. After placing us under covenant, he placed his finger on the document, his person rising from the floor about a foot or eighteen inches, and with countenance animated by the Spirit of the Lord, and raising his right hand to the square, he said, “Sign that document? -- Never! I would suffer my right hand to be severed from my body first. Sanction it—never! I would suffer my tongue to be torn from its roots in my mouth before I would sanction it!”

After that he talked for about an hour and then sat down and wrote the revelation which was given him by the Lord upon the question of Plural Marriage (the text of which revelation is given above). Then he talked to us for some time, and said, “Some of you will be handled and ostracized and cast out from the Church by your brethren because of your faithfulness and integrity to this principle, and some of you may have to surrender your lives because of the same, but woe, woe, unto those who shall bring these troubles upon you.” (Three of us were handled and ostracized for supporting and sustaining this principle. There are only three left who were at the meeting mentioned—Daniel R. Bateman, George Earl, and myself. So far as I know, those of them who have passed away all stood firm to the covenants entered into from that day to the day of their deaths.)

After the meeting referred to, President Taylor had L. John Nuttall write five copies of the revelation. He called five of us together: Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, George Q. Cannon, John W. Woolley, and myself.

He then set us apart and placed us under covenant that while we lived we would see to it that no year passed by without children being born in the principle of plural marriage. We were given authority to ordain others if necessary to carry this work on, they in turn to be given authority to ordain others when necessary, under the direction of the worthy senior (by ordination), so that there should be no cessation in the work. He then gave each of us a copy of the revelation.

I am the only one of the five now living, and so far as I know all five of the brethren remained true and faithful to the covenants they entered into, and to the responsibilities placed upon them at that time.

During the eight hours we were together, and while President Taylor was talking to us, he frequently arose and stood above the floor, and his countenance and being were so enveloped by light and glory that it was difficult for us to look upon him.

He stated that the document (referring to the Manifesto) was from the lower regions. He stated that many of the things he had told us we would forget and they would be taken from us, but that they would return to us in due time as needed, and from this fact we would know that the same was from the Lord. This has been literally fulfilled. Many of the things I forgot, but they are coming to me gradually, and those things that come to me are as clear as on the day on which they were given.

President Taylor said that the time would come when many of the Saints would apostatize because of this principle. He said “one-half of this people would apostatize over the principle for which we are now in hiding; yea, and possibly one-half of the other half” (rising off the floor while making the statement). He also said the day will come when a document similar to that (Manifesto) then under consideration would beadopted by the Church, following which “APOSTASY AND WHOREDOM would be rampant in the Church.”

He said that in the time of the seventh President of this Church, the Church would go into bondage both temporally and spiritually and in that day (the day of bondage) the one Mighty and Strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants would come.

Among other things stated by President Taylor on this occasion was this, “I would be surprised if ten per cent of those who claim to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood will remain true and faithful to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, at the time of the seventh president, and that there would be thousands that think they hold the priesthood at that time, but would not have it properly conferred upon them.”

John Taylor set the five mentioned apart and gave them authority to perform marriage ceremonies, and also to set others apart to do the same thing as long as they remained upon the earth; and while doing so, the Prophet Joseph Smith stood by directing the proceedings. Two of us had not met the Prophet Joseph Smith in his mortal lifetime and we—Charles H. Wilkins and myself—were introduced to him and shook hands with him.

(Signed) LORIN C. WOOLLEY.

Daniel R. Bateman, being present while the above experience was related by Brother Woolley, testified as follows: “I was privileged to be at the meeting of September 27, 1886, spoken of by Brother Woolley, I myself acting as one of the guards for the brethren during those exciting times. The proceedings of the meeting, as related by Brother Woolley, are correct in every detail. I was not present when the five spoken of by Brother Woolley were set apart for special work, but have on different occasions heard the details of the same related by Brother Lorin C. Woolley and John W. Woolley, and from all the circumstances with which I am familiar, I firmly believe the testimony of these two brethren to be true.”
Additional Corroborative Evidence

First hand witness

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Lorin C. Woolley Statement

Further and ultimate proof of the existence of this revelation we quote a statement in extenso from Lorin C. Woolley, a bodyguard of John Taylor at the time the revelation was received, and who(along with others) was given a copy of the same on the day it was written, as the statement indicates.

Statement of Lorin C. Woolley in reference to the revelation of 1886, on the subject of Celestial or plural marriage, given September 22, 1929: There were present Lorin C. Woolley, Daniel R. Bateman, John Y. Barlow, J. Leslie Broadbent and J. W. Musser. Prayer was offered by John Y. Barlow.

The mainstream LDS Church response

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Official Church Statement

In the “Official Statement” from the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, signed by Heber J. Grant, A.W. Ivins and J. Reuben Clark, Jr., “First Presidency,” the words are as follows:

“It is alleged that on September 26-27, 1886, President John Taylor received a revelation from the Lord, the purported text is given in publications circulated apparently by or at the instance of this organization (Fundamentalists).
“As to this pretended revelation it should be said that the archives of the Church contain no such a revelation; the archives contain no record of any such a revelation, nor any evidence justifying a belief that any such a revelation was ever given. From the personal knowledge of some of us, from the uniform and common recollection of the presiding quorums of the Church, from the absence in the Church archives of any evidence whatsoever justifying any belief that such a revelation was given, we are justified in affirming that no such a revelation exists.”

If the revelation to John Taylor was not then in the archives of the Church, it is because it had been taken out from the archives of the Church, in order to make the statement, for each of the brethren had been familiar with it and knew that it was in existence. These three men signed the false statement with full knowledge of its falsity and with the intent of deceiving the Saints. To make the deception more complete, A. W. Ivins, one of the signers to the false statement, wrote one of our California friends as follows:

“The latter purported revelation of John Taylor (of 1886) has no standing in the Church. I have searched carefully, and all that can be found is a piece of paper found among President Taylor’s effects after his death. It was written in pencil and only a few paragraphs, which has no signature at all. It was unknown to the Church until members of his own family claimed to have found it among his papers. It was never presented or discussed as a revelation by the presiding authorities of the Church.”

Then without any apparent thought of corroboration of this statement with facts, Apostle Melvin J. Ballard stumbles into a trap and leaves Brother Ivins out on a limb, as follows:

“The pretended revelation of John Taylor never had his signature added to it but was written in the form of a revelation and undoubtedly was in his handwriting.” (Marriage—Ballard-Jenson Correspondence, p. 17.)

Thus the revelation is confirmed by two independent statements made by two leading Church officials, each of whom tried to destroy it.

The late B. H. Roberts, while Assistant Historian of the Church, stated to friends that he had seen, on more than one occasion, the original copy of this 1886 revelation, and knew that it was in the Church archives; and in his opinion it was genuine.

1886 Revelation

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1886 Revelation
Given to President John Taylor September 27, 1886

My son John, you have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant how far it is binding upon my people.

Thus saith the Lord: All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority, and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant, for I the Lord am everlasting and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever.

Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject? Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my commandments, and yet have I borne with them these many years; and this because of their weakness—because of the perilous times, and furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. Nevertheless, I the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not, and as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph: All those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law. And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham’s seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham. I HAVE NOT REVOKED THIS LAW, NOR WILL I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory MUST obey the conditions thereof; even so, Amen.

Official Church Statement

In the “Official Statement” from the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, signed by Heber J. Grant, A.W. Ivins and J. Reuben Clark, Jr., “First Presidency,” the words are as follows:

“It is alleged that on September 26-27, 1886, President John Taylor received a revelation from the Lord, the purported text is given in publications circulated apparently by or at the instance of this organization (Fundamentalists).
“As to this pretended revelation it should be said that the archives of the Church contain no such a revelation; the archives contain no record of any such a revelation, nor any evidence justifying a belief that any such a revelation was ever given. From the personal knowledge of some of us, from the uniform and common recollection of the presiding quorums of the Church, from the absence in the Church archives of any evidence whatsoever justifying any belief that such a revelation was given, we are justified in affirming that no such a revelation exists.”

If the revelation to John Taylor was not then in the archives of the Church, it is because it had been taken out from the archives of the Church, in order to make the statement, for each of the brethren had been familiar with it and knew that it was in existence. These three men signed the false statement with full knowledge of its falsity and with the intent of deceiving the Saints. To make the deception more complete, A. W. Ivins, one of the signers to the false statement, wrote one of our California friends as follows:

“The latter purported revelation of John Taylor (of 1886) has no standing in the Church. I have searched carefully, and all that can be found is a piece of paper found among President Taylor’s effects after his death. It was written in pencil and only a few paragraphs, which has no signature at all. It was unknown to the Church until members of his own family claimed to have found it among his papers. It was never presented or discussed as a revelation by the presiding authorities of the Church.”

Then without any apparent thought of corroboration of this statement with facts, Apostle Melvin J. Ballard stumbles into a trap and leaves Brother Ivins out on a limb, as follows:

“The pretended revelation of John Taylor never had his signature added to it but was written in the form of a revelation and undoubtedly was in his handwriting.” (Marriage—Ballard-Jenson Correspondence, p. 17.)

Thus the revelation is confirmed by two independent statements made by two leading Church officials, each of whom tried to destroy it.

The late B. H. Roberts, while Assistant Historian of the Church, stated to friends that he had seen, on more than one occasion, the original copy of this 1886 revelation, and knew that it was in the Church archives; and in his opinion it was genuine.

Lorin C. Woolley Statement

As further and ultimate proof of the existence of this revelation we quote a statement in extenso from Lorin C. Woolley, a bodyguard of John Taylor at the time the revelation was received, and who was given a copy of the same on the day it was written, as the statement indicates.

Statement of Lorin C. Woolley with reference to the revelation of 1886, on the subject of Celestial or plural marriage, given September 22, 1929: There were present Lorin C. Woolley, Daniel R. Bateman, John Y. Barlow, J. Leslie Broadbent and J. W. Musser. Prayer was offered by John Y. Barlow.

Lorin C. Woolley related the following:

While the brethren were at the Carlisle residence (in Murray) in May or June of 1886, letters began to come to President John Taylor from such men as John Sharp, Horace Eldredge, William Jennings, John T. Cain, Abraham Hatch, President Cluff and many other leading men from all over the Church, asking the leaders to do something, as the Gentiles were talking of confiscating their property in connection with the property of the Church.

These letters not only came from those who were living in the plural marriage relation, but also from prominent men who were presiding in various offices in the Church who were not living in that relation. They all urged that something be done to satisfy the Gentiles so that their property would not be confiscated.

George Q. Cannon, on his own initiative, selected a committee comprising himself, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, John T. Caine and James Jack, to get up a statement or manifesto that would meet the objections urged by the brethren above named. They met from time to time to discuss the situation. From the White home, where President Taylor and companions stopped, after leaving the Carlisle home, they came out to father’s. George Q. Cannon would go and consult with the brethren of the committee, I taking him back and forth each day.

On September 26, 1886, George Q. Cannon, Hyrum B. Clawson, Franklin S. Richards, and others met with President John Taylor at my father’s residence at Centerville, Davis County, Utah, and presented a document for President Taylor’s consideration.

I had just got back from a three days’ trip, during most of which time I had been in the saddle, and being greatly fatigued, I had retired to rest.

Between one and two o’clock P.M. Brother Bateman came and woke me up and asked me to be at my father’s home, where a manifesto was to be discussed. I went there and found there were congregated Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, L. John Nuttall, Charles Birrell, George Q. Cannon, Franklin S. Richards and Hyrum B. Clawson.

We discussed the proposed Manifesto at length, but we were unable to become united in the discussion. Finally George Q. Cannon suggested that President Taylor take the matter up with the Lord and decide the same the next day.

Brothers Clawson and Richards were taken back to Salt Lake. That evening I was called to act as guard during the first part of the night, notwithstanding the fact that I was greatly fatigued on account of the three days’ trip I had just completed.

The brethren retired to bed soon after 9 o’clock. The sleeping rooms were inspected by the guards as was the custom. President Taylor’s room had no outside door. The windows were heavily screened.

Some time after the brethren retired and while I was reading the Doctrine and Covenants, I was suddenly attracted to a light appearing under the door leading to President Taylor’s room, and was at once startled to hear the voices of men talking there. There were three distinct voices. I was bewildered because it was my duty to keep people out of that room and evidently someone had entered without my knowing it. I made a hasty examination and found the door leading to the room bolted as usual. I then examined the outside of the house and found all the window screens intact. While examining the last window, and feeling greatly agitated, a voice spoke to me saying, “Can’t you feel the Spirit? Why should you worry?”

At this I returned to my post and continued to hear the voices in the room. They were so audible that although I did not see the parties I could place their positions in the room from the sound of their voices. The three voices continued until about midnight, when one of them left, and the other two continued. One of them I recognized as President John Taylor’s voice. I called Charles Birrell [Footnote: Charles Birrell was also a bodyguard of the brethren and was to take the second shift in watching on this night.] and we both sat up until eight o’clock the next morning.

When President Taylor came out of his room about eight o’clock of the morning of September 27, 1886, we could scarcely look at him on account of the brightness of his personage.

He stated, “Brethren, I have had a very pleasant conversation with Brother Joseph (Joseph Smith).” I said, “Boss, who is the man that was there until midnight?” He asked, “What do you know about it, Lorin?” I told him all about my experience. He said, “Brother Lorin, that was your Lord.”

We had no breakfast, but assembled ourselves in a meeting. I forget who opened the meeting. I was called to offer the benediction. I think my father, John W. Woolley, offered the opening prayer. There were present at the meeting, in addition to President Taylor, George Q. Cannon, L. John Nuttall, John W. Woolley, Samuel Bateman, Charles Wilkins, Charles Birrell, Daniel R. Bateman, Bishop Samuel Sedden, George Earl, my mother, Julia E. Woolley, my sister, Amy Woolley, and myself. The meeting was held from about 9 o’clock in the morning until 5 in the afternoon, without intermission, being about eight hours in all.

President Taylor called the meeting to order. He had the Manifesto, that had been prepared under the direction of George Q. Cannon, read over again. He then put each person under covenant that he or she would defend the principle of Celestial or plural marriage, and that they would consecrate their lives, liberty and property to this end, and that they personally would sustain and uphold that principle.
By that time we were all filled with the Holy Ghost. President Taylor and those present occupied about three hours up to this time. After placing us under covenant, he placed his finger on the document, his person rising from the floor about a foot or eighteen inches, and with countenance animated by the Spirit of the Lord, and raising his right hand to the square, he said, “Sign that document? -- Never! I would suffer my right hand to be severed from my body first. Sanction it—never! I would suffer my tongue to be torn from its roots in my mouth before I would sanction it!”

After that he talked for about an hour and then sat down and wrote the revelation which was given him by the Lord upon the question of Plural Marriage (the text of which revelation is given above). Then he talked to us for some time, and said, “Some of you will be handled and ostracized and cast out from the Church by your brethren because of your faithfulness and integrity to this principle, and some of you may have to surrender your lives because of the same, but woe, woe, unto those who shall bring these troubles upon you.” (Three of us were handled and ostracized for supporting and sustaining this principle. There are only three left who were at the meeting mentioned—Daniel R. Bateman, George Earl, and myself. So far as I know, those of them who have passed away all stood firm to the covenants entered into from that day to the day of their deaths.)

After the meeting referred to, President Taylor had L. John Nuttall write five copies of the revelation. He called five of us together: Samuel Bateman, Charles H. Wilkins, George Q. Cannon, John W. Woolley, and myself.

He then set us apart and placed us under covenant that while we lived we would see to it that no year passed by without children being born in the principle of plural marriage. We were given authority to ordain others if necessary to carry this work on, they in turn to be given authority to ordain others when necessary, under the direction of the worthy senior (by ordination), so that there should be no cessation in the work. He then gave each of us a copy of the revelation.

I am the only one of the five now living, and so far as I know all five of the brethren remained true and faithful to the covenants they entered into, and to the responsibilities placed upon them at that time.

During the eight hours we were together, and while President Taylor was talking to us, he frequently arose and stood above the floor, and his countenance and being were so enveloped by light and glory that it was difficult for us to look upon him.

He stated that the document (referring to the Manifesto) was from the lower regions. He stated that many of the things he had told us we would forget and they would be taken from us, but that they would return to us in due time as needed, and from this fact we would know that the same was from the Lord. This has been literally fulfilled. Many of the things I forgot, but they are coming to me gradually, and those things that come to me are as clear as on the day on which they were given.

President Taylor said that the time would come when many of the Saints would apostatize because of this principle. He said “one-half of this people would apostatize over the principle for which we are now in hiding; yea, and possibly one-half of the other half” (rising off the floor while making the statement). He also said the day will come when a document similar to that (Manifesto) then under consideration would beadopted by the Church, following which “APOSTASY AND WHOREDOM would be rampant in the Church.”

He said that in the time of the seventh President of this Church, the Church would go into bondage both temporally and spiritually and in that day (the day of bondage) the one Mighty and Strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants would come.

Among other things stated by President Taylor on this occasion was this, “I would be surprised if ten per cent of those who claim to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood will remain true and faithful to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, at the time of the seventh president, and that there would be thousands that think they hold the priesthood at that time, but would not have it properly conferred upon them.”

John Taylor set the five mentioned apart and gave them authority to perform marriage ceremonies, and also to set others apart to do the same thing as long as they remained upon the earth; and while doing so, the Prophet Joseph Smith stood by directing the proceedings. Two of us had not met the Prophet Joseph Smith in his mortal lifetime and we—Charles H. Wilkins and myself—were introduced to him and shook hands with him.

(Signed) LORIN C. WOOLLEY.

Daniel R. Bateman, being present while the above experience was related by Brother Woolley, testified as follows: “I was privileged to be at the meeting of September 27, 1886, spoken of by Brother Woolley, I myself acting as one of the guards for the brethren during those exciting times. The proceedings of the meeting, as related by Brother Woolley, are correct in every detail. I was not present when the five spoken of by Brother Woolley were set apart for special work, but have on different occasions heard the details of the same related by Brother Lorin C. Woolley and John W. Woolley, and from all the circumstances with which I am familiar, I firmly believe the testimony of these two brethren to be true.”
Additional Corroborative Evidence

Items of special interest relative to the 1886 REVELATION. The following excerpts taken from the trial minutes of special meetings of the Twelve Apostles held in the Salt Lake Temple, February 22nd, and March 1st, 1911.

Those in Attendance were: Apostle John W. Taylor, President Francis M. Lyman and Apostles Heber J. Grant, Hyrum M. Smith, Charles W. Penrose, George F. Richards, Orson F. Whitney, David O. McKay, Anthony W. Ivins and Joseph F. Smith Jr.

President Francis M. Lyman presided and specifically informed Apostle John W. Taylor that he had been summoned to the trial, “TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.”

Apostle John W. Taylor: My father received a REVELATION which however was never presented to the Church, and I refer to this not because it was a REVELATION to my father; I don’t think a REVELATION because it came through him was any greater than one received through any other president of the Church, but because it seems to pertain to this question.

The REVELATION follows:

The REVELATION was read by Brother Penrose.

Apostle John W. Taylor: There are two things I am drawing your attention to. I am not in politics and very little in the Church, but I do this as a matter of privilege. This REVELATION is either true or it is false. Assuming that it is true, it seems to me that it would be better to offer leniency on the side of the Lord if you are going to offer any leniency, than on the side of politics....Brother Lyman what do you think of the REVELATION to my father?

President Francis M. Lyman: If you ask me if I believe in the plurality of wives, I would say that Ibelieve it is true and will always be so, but the Lord may suspend the practice of it, and how much of the responsibility remains with the people and with the government, I don’t know. I am living with my wives now all the time, but I don’t hold the Church responsible for it but shoulder the responsibility myself....I have no fault to find with the REVELATION.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: Do you understand the free agency referred to in the REVELATION gives any one the privilege of taking a plural wife?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I take it that it refers to the individual and relieved the Church of the responsibility and placed the responsibility upon the individual.

President Francis M. Lyman: When did you find this REVELATION?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I found it on his desk immediately after his death, when I was appointed administrator of his estate....

President Francis M. Lyman: Do you think anyone can solemnize plural marriages with authority now?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I feel under certain circumstances they could, but it would depend on the circumstances.

President Francis M. Lyman: What conditions?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I fully explained that last time.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: What are your views with regard to that REVELATION?

Apostle John W. Taylor: I am not the one to pass upon that REVELATION. I think you are the ones to do that.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: What I desire to get at is as to how you view the matter, whether you have been guided by that in your case. You brought the REVELATION to us and it has never been accepted by the Church or presented to it.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I think the only thing to do is to go to the presiding priesthood of the Lord and get his idea on it and get him to inquire of the Lord what His mind is regarding it.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: I don’t think Brother Taylor should come here and tell us what we need to do. But what I wanted to know is what he thought the President meant by the REVELATION, whether the man was placed upon his own responsibility by that REVELATION and the President and Church relieved of all responsibility or not.

Apostle Anthony W. Ivins: Do you know how extensively this REVELATION has been circulated in times past and has guided people in their actions in this regard?

Apostle John W. Taylor: Brother Joseph Robinson came to me and asked for a copy of it upon the suggestion of Brother Cowley and he got it from Brother Badger. Brother Joseph F. Smith Jr. also got a copy but I don’t know how many have got copies from these.

Apostle Anthony W. Ivins: You don’t know what inference was placed upon it in early times?

Apostle John W. Taylor: No, I don’t know.

Apostle Anthony W. Ivins: I ask this question because I have heard some of the brethren interpret this REVELATION in this way, and I would like to find out to what extent they had the endorsement of the Church in view of this REVELATION, and what was the reason these brethren went to Canada and Mexico. Do you know what they based their belief upon; as they seemed to be sincere. Whether it was from this REVELATION or from the President of the Church or from what grounds were taken that they could come in contact with the law of the land and still win out. I would like to know from Brother Taylor what he knows about this and if they were justified in it.

Apostle John W. Taylor: President Smith has come out on numerous occasions with the statement that there have been no marriages of a polygamous nature solemnized with the approval of the Church, since 1890. He stands at the head of this dispensation at this moment and has adopted that policy, and as far as Iam concerned I don’t want to come in conflict with President Smith on this proposition. I don’t know what others have taken from this REVELATION. If the REVELATION is true, it would certainly impress me that the Church was relieved of responsibility in this matter and the responsibility placed upon the individual.

Apostle Orson F. Whitney: Was it not the policy during your father’s administration to leave everything to the mind of the individual? I know this was the case with me when I went to inquire if I should take the test oath. I was told to exercise my own judgment. Also there is no authority as far as I can see, in that REVELATION, no authority given to man to exercise such authority in marrying any one, but the question of whether they should go into the relationship was left with the individual, as in President Young’s time men were commanded to go into it.

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: I feel that we should not express our own views on this REVELATION but should have Brother Taylor’s views if he will give them, if not we can get through with that question.

President Francis M. Lyman: The date of this REVELATION is September 1886, four years before the manifesto of President Woodruff and I remember at that time that President Taylor and all his brethren were very strongly entrenched in the principle of plural marriage. From 1880 to 1890 men were almost commanded to enter it, especially the officials of the Church. We were all pretty well engaged in this question. The change came in 1890 when president Woodruff felt the necessity that plural marriage should cease and after that he felt just as strong against it, as President Taylor had felt for it before. It was subsequent to this that President Smith made his declaration that the Church took no responsibility for the unlawful co-habitation of those in plural marriage and the performance of plural marriages. I would like to ask if you have encouraged others to take plural wives, or taken them yourself or if you think these brethren who have copies of this REVELATION have taken it as an encouragement, for instance Brother Robinson.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I will answer that by asking if anyone you have had here before you has ever said that I encouraged him.

President Francis M. Lyman: No one except Wolff, and you admit having encouraged him under the direction of a superior officer.

Apostle David O. Mckay: I would like to know who the man is that directed you to instruct Brother Wolff to marry a certain party.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I would not wish to take issue with the President of the Church or anyone who is at the head of the Church. I went to President Smith’s office the other day and had a three and one-half hour talk with him and John Henry Smith and he said that he had never authorized anyone to perform a plural marriage. I am not saying that he is the one to whom I refer, but I do not want to say any more on this point.

Apostle Hyrum M. Smith: I would like Brother Taylor to feel that we are not persuading him or any other man to do them harm but simply to get at the bottom of these matters. I feel that you are responsible for the circulation of that REVELATION.

Apostle John W. Taylor: I am willing to put in a supplemental answer to the effect that I have never married anyone without the endorsement and authority of the President of the Church and, if you desire, I will give the names of those I have married, but I think this would be unwise....

Apostle Charles W. Penrose: Under this purported REVELATION from your father do you think this authority is given to anyone to perform a plural marriage on their own free agency?

Apostle John W. Taylor: If a man had been authorized in any way by authority to perform a marriage, under that REVELATION he would be.

(Signed)

John W Woolley

Lorin C Woolley

Daniel Bateman

George Q Cannon

L John Nuttall